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Join Joseph Backholm and Tony Perkins as they navigate through a rich tapestry of political discourse, focusing on the role of Christians in shaping the moral compass of the nation. This episode is more than just a reflection on Trump’s first term; it’s an insightful exploration of how the principles of faith, freedom, and morality are playing out in today’s socio-political context. With a special focus on the church’s involvement in public life, listeners are encouraged to reassess their own roles within the wider movement for faith-based governance.
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from the heart of our nation’s capital in Washington, D.C., bringing compelling interviews, insightful analysis, taking you beyond the headlines and soundbites into conversations with our nation’s leaders and newsmakers, all from a biblical worldview. Sitting in for Tony is today’s host, Joseph Backholm.
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Good afternoon and welcome to this special edition of Washington Watch. I’m Joseph Backholm, Senior Fellow for Biblical Worldview and Strategic Engagement at the Family Research Council. With Christmas upon us and New Year just around the corner, on behalf of Tony Perkins and the entire team at the Family Research Council, thank you for your enduring partnership. We remain grateful for your prayers, for spreading the word about Washington Watch, FRC, and our efforts here in Washington, DC, and around the country. Well, today I’m pleased to introduce you to a unique program that reflects on the past year, well, really quite a few years leading up to the present, and then looks to what God may have in store for us as we head into 2025. Today’s episode pulls excerpts from another production at the Family Research Council called Outstanding. Outstanding is the featured podcast of FRC’s news publication, The Washington Stand, and is hosted twice a week by yours truly. You can listen to the podcast in its entirety by going to TonyPerkins.com and clicking on the link in the show notes or by subscribing to the Outstanding podcast where podcasts are found. In this edition, I was joined by FRC’s president and host of Washington Watch, Tony Perkins, and today we reflected on the events over many years leading us into 2025. Woven throughout this discussion, we explored how God has been at work and how Christians might navigate some very interesting waters. Now, before we dive into this, with Christmas just around the corner, join Family Research Council in shining the light of biblical truth in Washington, D.C. Thanks to our $1.5 million challenge match provided by generous friends of FRC, every dollar you give will be doubled until December 31st. Your support will enable us to protect our shared biblical values in the coming year. To take advantage of this limited time opportunity, text the word LIGHT to 67742 and shine the light of truth with FRC this Christmas. Together, we can make an eternal impact for years to come. And now, here’s FRC’s very own Tony Perkins as he joined me on the Outstanding Podcast. Welcome to Outstanding, where we have critical conversations about the news of the day and the ideas that shape us. Once again, I’m your host, Joseph Backholm, inviting you to another exercise in taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. We’re at the time of year where it’s very common to reflect on the year that has been and look forward to the year that will be. But this isn’t just the end of the year and the start of a new one. It’s the beginning of a new administration. And it seems like, in many ways, that it could be the beginning of a new era for our country. Is this an inflection point? And if so, what are we inflecting to? That’s going to be part of our conversation today. And joining me for it is someone you’re all very familiar with, Tony Perkins, the president of the Family Research Council. Welcome to Outstanding.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, Joseph, it’s been a year, but I’m glad I finally got an invitation to be on Outstanding.
SPEAKER 12 :
We are glad that you have finally accepted our invitation to be on Outstanding. And there’s a lot to cover here. And I think as we kind of look back, look forward.
SPEAKER 06 :
Sounds like Charles Dickens’ Christmas carol.
SPEAKER 12 :
No, that’s right.
SPEAKER 06 :
The years past, the years forward, Christmas is past, Christmas is in the future.
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That’s exactly right. What’s your mood right now for where we’re at as a country?
SPEAKER 06 :
Optimistic from a standpoint of I think November the 5th has given us an opportunity. I said going into the election, and I hold to this position, the election could have destroyed the country. It wasn’t going to save it, but it could destroy it. We sidestepped destruction. But now the future, I believe, Joseph, is up to the church. And what we do with this moment, this reprieve that we’ve been given by God, I think November 5th was a couple of things. One, it was a response and a result of prayer. A lot of prayer went into this election and participation. But it has extended to the church the opportunity to do the work that only we can do. And in the past, the church has often looked to the government to do its work. Yeah. changing hearts and minds. The government can’t do that. Only the church can. But I do believe one thing is good about this administration, and I have questions and I have reservations. This is not the Trump administration of 2016. It’s different. But they’re going to give, I believe, cover and protection to the church to be able to, when I say church, I’m talking about Christians, followers of Christ, to be able to walk out their faith, live out their faith without government harassment and interference. Yeah. And that’s a good thing.
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Right. I think that is a way a lot of people saw this election because Trump, the candidate of 2016, is not Trump, the candidate of 2024.
SPEAKER 06 :
No, and I don’t think we should try to hide that or cover it up. It’s just the reality of what it is. I’ve had conversations going into the election with the president over the life issue. They weren’t necessarily— Friendly conversations at times, although I prayed with the president, continue to pray for him every day, and so grateful for him. I am grateful for him that he has stepped into this arena and is willing to take the punches that he’s taken. But here’s where I think we need to come in, Joseph, is the church, Christians, followers of Christ, We’ve been given a prophetic voice in Martin Luther King Jr. and a sermon that he preached at knock at midnight. He said, the church is not the servant or the master of the state, but we’re the conscience and the guide. And if we lose our prophetic voice, we’re nothing more than a glorified social club. And so we need to speak prophetically so that… When I say prophetically, I’m talking about speaking truth, biblical truth. Example, human life is sacred because it’s created in the image of God, therefore worthy to be protected under our laws. That’s what we need to speak to government so that… They’re successful. I want Donald Trump to be successful as president. I want Mike Johnson to be successful as Speaker of the House. I want John Thune to be successful as the majority leader in the Senate. And that goes all the way down to governors and state legislatures. And the way we do that is we uphold the standard of truth.
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You have been working with churches in a lot of election cycles now. How does 2024 and the way the church responded in this election compare to 2000, 2008, 2012, as you kind of just watched?
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, George Barna actually crunched the numbers and looked at them, and the turnout of evangelicals in this election was lower than it was in 2020. Actually going back to probably the numbers about 2012 is what we’re looking at, maybe 2008. And I can kind of explain that. I was having a conversation with a U.S. senator this week about it. Look, the Bible describes us as sheep. Does it not? I mean, there’s a reason. Yeah, it’s kind of an insult. Well, it’s an insult, but it’s a reality that we follow. People follow. You know, I used to… Yeah, I mean, it used to drive me crazy. I thought, well, you know, they’re going to lead or they’ll lead. No, they don’t. That’s not what… Leaders lead and people follow. And so what happened in this election is that… We continue to have a challenge of pastors, and not all, because I’m going to be very careful here, because we’ve got some really, really good pastors that have stepped up, are totally engaged, preaching the Word of God, engaging their people to not pin their hope on government, but to serve in the kingdom of God, which influences government. There’s a big difference. Our hope is not in government. Our hope is not in this incoming administration government. but our responsibility is to speak into it, and at least they will be listening to some degree. So when you don’t have pastors that are preaching it and challenging people to get involved, and you can explain that from a standpoint of you had this time, President Trump did not embrace a strong position on life. This is where I had issues with the campaign is when they basically stripped the Republican Party platform from all of its meaning. on life, marriage, family, these issues.
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Do you think that was just a campaign position where they clearly had made the bet that if we are not enthusiastically pro-life, that will pull some of the middle to us that’s concerned about abortion as an issue, and we want to make sure that the Republican Party platform cannot be leveraged against us as a presidential campaign. Was that the calculation?
SPEAKER 06 :
I think probably so. But the case I made to them as they were contemplating that idea is kind of what played out. And that was that the pro-life vote, because I go back to the illustration of sheep, the pastors are gonna follow what the leaders say and the people will follow what the pastors say. And if they’re not clearly articulating what they stand for on policy, there’s gonna be silence. And so what happened is Christians didn’t turn out in large numbers. Now, fortunately, the turnout was even worse on the Democratic side because they had gone so crazy that people were scared of them and they insulted a lot of people. I mean, Kamala Harris, first time ever we had a presidential candidate whose top issue was aborting babies. And she, this was a really interesting number, She got a smaller percentage of the female vote than Joe Biden got in 2020. Yeah, that’s crazy. It is. But these women were saying, look, we’re more interested in feeding our family, not aborting them. And so I think it was a repudiation of the Democratic Party and their platform. I wouldn’t say… Joseph, that this was a wholehearted endorsement of the Republican. It was more of a repudiation of the left and how crazy they’ve become.
SPEAKER 12 :
Now, I agree with that basic analysis, and I want to get your response to this, because it seems to me that the left has gone really far left. And I think this whole, like, abortion at any time, for any reason, and the government has to pay for it. And I also think the trans stuff is like a bridge too far.
SPEAKER 06 :
That was huge. I mean, that was like an 80% issue.
SPEAKER 12 :
And we saw the Trump campaign invest heavily, and even local campaigns, in that issue with that whole commercial that was running in all of the swing states.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, go ahead.
SPEAKER 12 :
And it finished with… uh she’s for they them he’s for you right that that slogan really seems to encapsulate a lot of things and so the left has moved so far left we’re gonna you know we’re gonna punish you and fire you if you don’t use preferred pronouns you must agree that men can have babies and all this abortion stuff that seems to be a place that middle america does not want to go in the meantime Trump seems to have taken the Republican Party and filled all that space in the middle that the left kind of evacuated. And now he has a team, Trump himself, former Democrat, RFK Jr., former Democrat, Tulsi, former Democrat, Elon, who became a really big part of this campaign, former Democrat. Is the left becoming more conservative and therefore converting? Or do we see the Republican Party just basically becoming a moderate party? And so now all these people who used to be Democrats but aren’t leftists now feel home there.
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I would say I think it’s political expediency to bring folks like that. And I’m fine to grow the party, but you have to have a foundation upon which to grow it. So let me ask you this question. How can the issue of transgendering our children be an issue that we’ll take a stand on, but not the right for the child to be born?
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That was FRC’s Tony Perkins when he joined me on the Outstanding podcast recently, and you’re tuned into Washington Watch. When we return, Tony and I will dive deeper into this topic and answer the question of why some people who oppose the mutilation of children through transgender procedures have no problem killing children through abortion when they are inconvenient to the parents. We have much more to share on this special edition of Washington Watch, so don’t go away.
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During these challenging times for our nation, Family Research Council continues to serve as a watchman on the wall for faith, family, and freedom. And together, thanks to your support, we’re making an eternal impact. 2024 has been another year of shining the light for biblical truth in Washington, D.C. This fall, over 1,000 spiritually active, governance-engaged conservatives gathered for the Pray Vote Stand Summit. to pray for our nation and ensure that the issues impacting sage cons were understood and advanced. Washington Watch with Tony Perkins marked a major milestone this year, its 900th episode, and added the Washington Watch News Desk, a new production that presents the top news each day from a biblical worldview. The Washington Stand published 2,000 articles of news, commentary, and podcasts in 2024, garnering over 5 million views. FRC’s outlet for news and commentary continues to pursue the truth on the issues that matter most to you and your family. And with the launch of the StandFirm app, you can listen to, watch, and read our content in one simple place. Pray for current issues, stay rooted in the scriptures, and engage the political sphere with a community of believers on our new platform. In 2024, FRC shaped public policy and culture, organizing the National Gathering for Prayer and Repentance, where members of Congress and Christian leaders came together to seek God’s intervention in America. In May, FRC called upon believers to pray for and stand with Israel by dedicating a portion of their worship services to pray for Israel’s peace, prosperity, and protection. With Pray, Vote, Stand Decision 2024, FRC and Real Life Network led a powerful evening of election night coverage to analyze the election results and pray that our nation would turn back to God. We also filmed a transformative educational course, God and Government, Launching in January 2025, this series will explore the biblical and historical foundations of our government, empowering you to stand confidently in your role as a citizen of heaven and earth. Family Research Council thanks you for partnering with us for another year of standing for faith, family, and freedom.
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Looking to grow closer to God in the new year? FRC’s Stand on the Word spiral-bound journal is here to help. Dive deeper into scripture with thought-provoking questions, note-taking space, and context for each book and author. This second edition, covering Isaiah 2 Revelation, will guide you in tracking your journey through God’s Word while deepening your faith in Christ. Order now at frc.org slash store or text journal to 67742. Perfect for you and your loved ones.
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Welcome back to Washington Watch. I’m your host, Joseph Backholm, FRC Senior Fellow for Biblical Worldview and Strategic Engagement. The website is TonyPerkins.com. If you’re just tuning in, today is a special edition, highlighting an interview Tony had with me on our podcast, Outstanding. Just before the break, we finished analyzing a shift in the two political parties in our country and started to discuss the hazard of being guided by polls rather than moral conviction rooted in biblical truth. Let’s hop back into this conversation I had with Family Research Council President Tony Perkins.
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So let me ask you this question. How can the issue of transgendering our children be an issue that will take a stand on, but not the right for the child to be born?
SPEAKER 12 :
Well, that’s part of the incoherence of kind of like moderation.
SPEAKER 06 :
So what’s the moral compass? How do you arrive at what position you’re going to take on an issue? Polling.
SPEAKER 12 :
Exactly. I mean, I think that’s the real answer, right?
SPEAKER 06 :
That is the real answer.
SPEAKER 12 :
That’s the real answer.
SPEAKER 06 :
So what happens when polling becomes your guiding light? You go wherever the polls tell you to go. And you become basically schizophrenic because the polling will change overnight. We’ve seen this through scripture, how one week they’re cheering Jesus, Hosanna, Hosanna. And the next week, crucify him, crucify him.
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How do you think it’s going to work for the next four years? Because the Republicans are in control of everything, but I don’t even know what a Republican is necessarily these days. Because you have, you know, RFK Jr., I don’t know if he considers himself to be a Republican, but he’s in a Republican administration. You have Trump and you have the Elons of the world. And then you have the Mike Johnsons and the Chip Roy’s and the Freedom Caucus folks who are all wearing the same jersey. How does that go for the next four years, do you think?
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Well, I think it has potential. Look, I’m all about people coming into the party, but this is where the platform is important, because the platform has a stated set of values and principles. And so, and you don’t have to be 100%. I mean, that’s, you know, so you’re 80%. But, you know, you get the core things right. But see, what we’ve done Not what we, I should rephrase that. What the Republicans, what the Trump campaign did is they gutted the party platform to where it’s meaningless. It really doesn’t say much of anything. Second Amendment is gone. Definition of family is gone. The plank for life is gone. Religious freedom is truncated. There’s just very little there. Even the support for Israel is just as we support Israel. Okay, what does that mean? That’s the problem with… Kind of policy by the seat of your pants. You really you need you need to drive some stakes on some issues. And so when people come in and say, yeah, I can agree with that. Yeah, I’m for that. You kind of know. But we’re at a point where we have people coming in to the party or into this administration that. There’s really no stated values other than make America great again. And so where are they coming from? How do you go about making America great again? We recognize that for America to be great, it must first be good. There must be a moral foundation. And that’s where life, family, human sexuality, all those issues come in.
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Yeah.
SPEAKER 12 :
Well, Trump’s kind of gut seems to be the compass now for the Republican Party. And we saw, I mean, Laura Trump was the head of the, obviously a family member, was running the GOP, no longer is, which raises a question for me. Does the GOP in a post-Trump world return to kind of the historical norm of we have a party that’s not created for one campaign. We have a platform that’s not created for one campaign, but it’s actually a representation of the grassroots and what we believe. Do you think those days will return?
SPEAKER 06 :
There’s a lot of conversations about that even now that are already taking place because President Trump is four years. That’s it. And so there will be a campaign in four years for for president. Now, many people say, well, it’d be J.D. Vance. Well, that’s not a given. I mean, there may be there may be competition.
SPEAKER 12 :
There should be, hopefully. There will be an actual race.
SPEAKER 06 :
And I think there’s, again, conversations already taking place that the party has to go back to where it was, where the party, the people, their elected representatives, and that’s how that party platform’s put together. I’ve been on four or five party platforms elected by my constituents in my home state of Louisiana, and that’s done across the country. So I think there’s a desire to go back to allow the people of the party to actually construct the platform and what the party represents. Now, will that happen? I don’t know, because President Trump and I like him. I like him as a person. I know him. I’ve spent time with him. And he’s a very unique individual, larger than life in many ways, and has left a profound impact on not just the Republican Party, but on the nation and the movement. And I admire his fighting spirit. There’s a lot that I do admire about him. But I think for the Republican Party to sustain itself and to continue into the future, it has to have an identity that is not attached to an individual, but it has a stated set of enduring principles.
SPEAKER 12 :
We’ve covered a lot of ground here on where we’re at right now, but you have a unique… Kind of a perspective on where we’re at right now because of your history with President Trump, with the first administration, with the pro-life movement. Take us back, if you would, 2015, 2016. He gets in. Good things start happening on the life issue. What was that like for you? How surprising or not was that for you? And how does that kind of color the way you are understanding where we’re at right now?
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, in the primary, actually, we went through a process. It was a very thorough process. We’re talking the 2015 primary? 2015 primary. A number of conservative leaders got together, and we went through a year-long process of interviewing the candidates. We had 17, if I remember correctly, 17 candidates. We interviewed almost every one of them. We looked at all their, you know, their fundraising, their strategy. I mean, it was a very thorough process. And we all agreed that we would vote through the process and that we would come together behind one candidate. And, you know, it. Ninety five percent did. And we came behind Ted Cruz and that propelled Ted Cruz in into the primary. And he was becoming the candidate, but then ran out of started to have some issues, ran out of money, pulled out of the campaign. And we were left with I think at that point is pretty much just Donald Trump.
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That was it. Well, this is Washington Watch, and you’re getting some great perspective as Tony offers some insight behind how Donald Trump became the Republican nominee way back in 2015. When we return, we’ll hear more about this before he segues into some of the adjustments in Trump’s messaging from then to now. Stick around. We’ve got more to come.
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So if you like to think and you like to pray, FRC is the place for you.
SPEAKER 13 :
I think it is the best program out there.
SPEAKER 11 :
Yeah, I’ve absolutely loved my experience interning at FRC.
SPEAKER 13 :
They really are making waves out in the political world and doing it from the light of the Lord.
SPEAKER 14 :
It’s really humbling for me as a college student who has been involved in the life movement for only a couple of years to be able to witness it alongside of some of the people who have spent their entire lives fighting. A huge thing that sets FRC’s internship apart from others is they are looking for what they can pour into you instead of what they can get out of you.
SPEAKER 13 :
I have talked to so many of my friends who have interned other places and they’re responding to emails or taking phone calls and doing things like that, but here we get real hands-on experience and get to talk to important people and do important things that we get to see the impact of.
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The throne of Jesus Christ is unchallenged. His name was never on the ballot to begin with, and it’s never gonna be on the ballot. He’s the King of Kings, and he’s the Lord of Lords, and nothing’s gonna change that. And so our mission stays the same, preach the gospel, make disciples, get ready for heaven. In the meantime, that we’re to advance the concerns of the kingdom of God here on earth.
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SPEAKER 12 :
Good afternoon and welcome back. If you are just joining us, this is a special edition of Washington Watch where Tony Perkins is in the guest chair on FRC’s podcast, Outstanding, which is my pleasure to host twice a week. Before the break, Tony explained how Donald Trump became the last man standing in the Republican primaries back in 2016. And it’s about to share how Christian leaders began to vet the man who would become the 45th president of the United States. Here’s how Tony got into that.
SPEAKER 06 :
And so we had initiated some conversations with Trump. I was a part of organizing the gathering of about a thousand evangelical leaders in New York. And we began to have conversations. Here’s three things he did. And this was going into the convention. And all this was happening in the early part of 2016, I guess, or 2016. 2015. I can’t remember the exact date. But so we were having these conversations. And then when we went into the convention, there were three things we said had to happen. Number one, he had to pick a known quantity as a running mate that had a pro-life platform or a pro-life record because he didn’t. And we said that he had to—actually, the first was—that was the second. The first was a list of judges or— that he would commit to judges. We didn’t ask for a list. We just asked for a commitment to pro-life judges, a pro-life running mate. And then we actually asked that he would not diss the platform, but accept the party platform. And didn’t think he would do that, honestly. So what does he do? He actually puts out a list, not just saying, I’ll do it. He puts out a list of names, right? that you could vet.
SPEAKER 12 :
And they were good. And in hindsight, I think that won him the life.
SPEAKER 06 :
It was good. And then he picked Mike Pence, who probably not someone who, there was probably no one else that had a stronger pro-life voting record and known for that issue in Congress. And then not only, and I’ve been through, as I mentioned, I’ve been through many conventions. Not only did he not oppose his people not opposed the party platform in 2016. They actually helped us strengthen it. And I was like shocked. And so we said, absolutely, we’ll support him at that point. And people say, well, why? Why are you supporting him? He was married three times. Well, at that point, it was between him and Hillary. There were no other options. And he had done everything we asked him to do. And then there was some… hesitancy about, well, will he really do it? Yeah, sure. And there was a lot of pushing we had to do, but he accomplished more in his four years in terms of advancing conservative, biblically aligned values than any other president in my lifetime. And it was surprising. honestly, rewarding, encouraging. And so that’s kind of the backdrop of why there’s a little bit of a letdown with what we see in this administration. In fact, Mike Pompeo, who had been the first CIA director and then Secretary of State, who I worked with closely even when he was in Congress. He was a friend. But he made a comment one time, he quipped, he said, you know, President Trump may not be a Sunday school teacher, but he knows how to hire them. Because almost every cabinet secretary was a Sunday school teacher.
SPEAKER 12 :
Actually?
SPEAKER 06 :
Actually. Oh, okay. Actually. Almost every one of them had taught Sunday school. And so that was who he was surrounded with in 2016. And that’s why we got such good policy, like that executive order on religious freedom in the federal government. And Sonny Perdue, one of the first, who was Secretary of Agriculture, I mean, went after it. We had had some issues with the… really persecuting meatpackers for having conservative Christian views and literature in their meatpacking plants. And so Sonny Perdue went after that. Secretary of Education, Secretary of State. I mean, you Google down the list. And so it’s that backdrop that causes us to say, wow, this is not 2016, but… We believe that we have been, that God has given us reprieve. But here, Joseph, is something, and I shared this recently at a chapel service, is that I think this, what God is telling us, if I can speak that way here on outstanding, is that our eyes need to be on him and our appeal to him because he is the ultimate authority. And I think as Christians, we are to be engaged, but our engagement on earth has to be directed by our communication in heaven. Yeah.
SPEAKER 12 :
How do you interpret the change that you’ve seen in Trump 1.0 to Trump 2.0? Is this something where he was just saying what he needed to say and doing what he needed to do the first time? And now he’s just saying what he needs to say and doing what he needs to do the second time. And that creates a bit of incoherence because what he thinks he needed to do the second time is different. Or has there been like some change in sight?
SPEAKER 06 :
No, I think it’s more, I mean, he’s very transactional. He’s a business guy. He’s about the art of the deal. And I think, you know, the first time that the deal was with evangelicals to get that vote, that… And I don’t want to say that he doesn’t believe any of it. I think he does, but he is not ideologically driven. I mean, he… I think this I do believe to be true, that he loves America. And he’s willing to sacrifice on behalf of America. But he’s coming at it from a different perspective than we are. I mean, we’re here as Christians engaged in government. From a biblical perspective, we’re citizens of a kingdom that is eternal, that is not going to go away. So we’re not, we got to win at all costs. The end does not justify the means.
SPEAKER 12 :
That was FRC’s Tony Perkins as he joined me on the podcast Outstanding, and you’re tuned in to Washington Watch. There’s still more to come in this special edition of Washington Watch, so stay tuned.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hello, I’m Tony Perkins, President of the Family Research Council here in Washington, D.C. Behind me is one of the most recognizable buildings in all the world, the U.S. Capitol. What does it stand for? Well, most people say government. But do you know the Bible talks about four institutions of government? Do you know what they are? And do we have a republic or a democracy? Well, what do you say? Also, what about this thing, separation of church and state? Does that mean Christians shouldn’t be involved in government? Guess what? We address those issues and more in our new God and Government course. I invite you to join us to see what the historical record and the Bible has to say about government. Join us for God and Government.
SPEAKER 08 :
Let’s not be discouraged. Don’t lose heart. Don’t lose the faith. Stand now strong because the Lord has given us the great privilege of living in a time when our choices matter, when our lives matter, when our courage matters. So let’s stand together and save this great country. God bless the United States of America.
SPEAKER 07 :
The American Republic has a freedom like no other. It has roots in the scriptures far more than any other heritage. And if we as followers of Jesus and conservatives don’t defend it, who will?
SPEAKER 01 :
Neutrality is not an option. There are many Christians who believe that if we just keep our heads down, if we just don’t say the wrong thing, that somehow we will come out of this unscathed. You’re naive if you think that. Because what they want from us is not our silence. What they want from us is our submission.
SPEAKER 09 :
Part of the dilemma of Christianity in our generation is that we’ve relied a little too much on human wisdom and human reasoning, human strength, human resource, and we’ve relied too little on the power of God and God’s ability to open doors that we can’t open and do things that we couldn’t even hope to begin to do.
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This may not be an easy task, But we are living in a moment of challenge, but also a great opportunity. And we know always that we are not alone, that his spirit empowers us and protects us, and that he can do the unimaginable. Dobbs, after all, was never supposed to have it.
SPEAKER 06 :
Father, we thank you. You have entrusted us with this moment in history, and I pray that we would be found faithful, and that as a result of our faithfulness to you, that thousands, millions would come into the kingdom as they would experience the forgiveness of sin and the new life that is found only in Jesus Christ. Amen.
SPEAKER 12 :
Welcome back to this very special edition of Washington Watch with Tony Perkins. I’m Joseph Backholm filling in for Tony. Well, sort of. If you’ve caught the previous segments of today’s show, you know that Tony is also joining us in a roundabout way today. As mentioned earlier, today’s program contains excerpts from The Outstanding Podcast, which is the featured podcast of FRC’s Washington Stand news publication. In this unique episode, Tony is in the hot seat where he joined me to share his perspective on President-elect Trump, or as we referred to him before the break, as Trump 2.0. If you’d like to catch this podcast in its entirety, go to TonyPerkins.com and look for the link in the show notes. You can also find this and all outstanding podcasts on the Washington Stand website, as well as on Apple, Amazon, Podbean, iHeart, and anywhere podcasts can be found. Now let’s rejoin this conversation already in progress between me and Tony Perkins on the podcast Outstanding.
SPEAKER 06 :
He’s very transactional. He’s a business guy. He’s about the art of the deal. And I think, you know, the first time that the deal was with evangelicals to get that vote, that… And I don’t want to say that he doesn’t believe any of it. I think he does, but he is not ideologically driven. I mean, he… I think this I do believe to be true, that he loves America. And he’s willing to sacrifice on behalf of America. But he’s coming at it from a different perspective than we are. I mean, we’re here as Christians engaged in government. From a biblical perspective, we’re citizens of a kingdom that is eternal, that is not going to go away. So we’re not, we got to win at all costs. The end does not justify the means. And that’s a different perspective because, you know, I want to win. I’m not a good loser. I don’t like to lose, but I’m not going to compromise anything. fundamental biblical truth in order to gain a temporary victory, because that’s what it is. Anything in this life that we gain is temporary. In this organization, the Family Research Council, we’re not going to trade eternal truth for temporary access. That never works out. We’re here to be a prophetic voice of truth, eternal truth that has lasting impact on the lives of people. And beyond winning election, beyond passing policy, our mission is to see people set free through the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ so that it has an eternal impact because it impacts their destiny.
SPEAKER 12 :
What do you think is motivating this guy that is willing to just endure all the trials, all the bogus trials, all the attempts to destroy his life? And it’s not like he’s a young man anymore, right? It’s like, yeah, I could be done with all this stress, go play with my grandkids, golf a lot, and have a very good life, kind of the life that everybody else says that they want, right? That’s right there for him if he just decides that’s what I want. He clearly doesn’t want that. Why is that?
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, that’s… It’s a question that I’ve pondered many times as I’ve even spent time privately. Privately, he’s a much different individual than he is in public. In fact, I was kind of puzzled by this, and finally I asked someone who had known him for years. I said, all right, I don’t get this. In public, he’s this—he says these edgy things. He’s bombastic. But in private, I mean, he’s— and people kind of laugh when I say this, but he’s almost humble. I mean, he asks questions, he listens. My first meeting with him was in New York in Trump Tower, about 30 minutes just me and him. And I shared my testimony with him about how I came to Christ and what that meant to me. And he just sat there and he listened. And he asked some questions, respectful questions. And this is one thing I do know from talking to, because I’ve known almost every one of his chiefs of staff, that, and this has not been the case with other presidents. I said, look, let me ask you this. What does he say when the Christians leave the room? Does he mock them? Does he make fun of them? No, no. He has a great respect for evangelical leaders. And that was my experience is that he’s very inquisitive. He has a respect for people who are willing to sacrifice not to gain something. Because he saw the evangelicals were not looking for… They weren’t looking for money. They weren’t looking for government contracts. And it was a little bit, I think, he found that interesting. No business deals. What they wanted, what we wanted were things that would make life better for other people.
SPEAKER 05 :
Goodness.
SPEAKER 06 :
And so I think he respected that in a way. And I mean, he’s clearly an overachiever. He wants to achieve. And I think part of that is his identity. And I think that in part is what drives him. He’s kind of an enigma to me because in many ways, but in this one particular way, because he does appreciate and I would say almost crave affirmation. And he takes these hard, strong stands that just brings the world down on him, pounding him. But I think it’s because he believes in it. And so what we have found, I would say we, the church, the affinity and the connection, is that we’ve felt the same hostility and the same rejection. And so there’s kind of a common bond that takes place there because we’ve experienced the same thing from the world. We just didn’t anticipate it being Donald Trump. And so, Joseph, I would just say this, and I do this every day. I pray for him every day. In fact, my last conversation with him before the election, about a month before the election, I said, a little hard conversation over the life issue, but I prayed with him. I said, can I pray for you? And every time I talk to him, I pray with him. And I pray for him every day. And we’re instructed to do that in scripture, to pray for those in authority. But I do so with joy and gratitude, the fact that he is going to be our president.
SPEAKER 12 :
So on the life issue, understanding kind of the different environment it seems that we’re operating in. Are you optimistic or pessimistic about what’s going to happen on the life issue, knowing that it’s not just the executive? He’s building a cabinet right now. As you see the team forming around him and how they feel about the life issue, what’s your prognosis?
SPEAKER 06 :
I think it’s up to us. Let me tell you where my greater disappointment is, and not so much in the president, but in pro-life leaders. I am so disappointed in pro-life leaders who folded like a cheap suit when the president abandoned the life issue and the party abandoned it because they wanted access. And that to me is, it’s despicable to choose access over defending the unborn. I don’t want to be in the room if the unborn are not a part of the conversation. Because it’s a fundamental issue, Joseph. It’s not just another issue. I mean, you go back through the Old Testament and you look at God’s judgment on Israel for idolatry. The idolatry, and very few pastors really unpack that, what was taking place there. Idolatry that they were engaged in from the Canaanites included like Molech. Right. where they had temple prostitution. So they engaged in sexual immorality. And, you know, when you do that, it produces children. And a convenient way to get rid of those children, these unwanted children, was to sacrifice those to the gods. And so that’s the child sacrifice, the shedding of innocent blood that took place. And God’s judgment, that was a red line for God. And judgment came upon those nations. This is nothing to play with, especially when we, after nearly 50 years of praying and working and engaging in this process, we got to a point where literally what the Supreme Court did changed its mind. It repented. That’s the Greek word for repentance is metanoia, meaning to change your mind, to change your way. And so it changed its mind, but that has to be followed up by the works of repentance. And now we’re running away from that moment of repentance. That is a dangerous place to be.
SPEAKER 12 :
So let’s talk about the place to be and where we are right now, because you mentioned earlier that these election results may not be as much about an embrace of the Republican Party and more a rejection of leftism and kind of everything that it is with speech codes and an emphasis on DEI and superficial identity categories over competency and character and really injustice in the name of justice. Are we at an inflection point right now that you think is more significant than any other change of administration?
SPEAKER 06 :
I think it is. I think for all you just laid out there, I think it was a kind of a wake up moment. You know, how did we get here? And again, I think this is where Donald Trump, you know, I think the Lord has used him to basically do a rally cry. Now, again, maybe not coming from the same worldview or motivation, but some of this stuff is just common sense. You know, forcing people to call women men and, you know, men participating in women’s sports. I mean, this stuff, this is just common sense. And people are saying, you know what, enough of this. The emperor has no clothes. It’s time to call it like it is. And so I do think we’re at that moment. But. Where we go from here and how we respond to it, how we respond is going to determine really the future of this country. Now, we can deal with the symptoms. Or we can go to the heart of the matter and the cause. And the cause is this is a reflection of the moral and spiritual decline of the nation. It is a call to return to God and to his truth. Now, we can return, as we were just talking about a few moments ago, about, all right, so we’re going to take on transgenderism, but we’re not going to take on the life issue. And that’s based upon not objective transcendent truth, but rather on polling data. Yes, and polling. Well, what happens when that changes tomorrow? And there’s no stable foundation there. So we have to return to the ancient paths. We have to go back to the truth, the very bedrock of our country, our society, what the founders built this nation on. As John Adams said, our laws were made for a moral and religious people. They are wholly inadequate for the government of any other. And so if we don’t return to rebuild that moral foundation, There’s no way we’re going to be a great country because nothing will sustain us. You can’t build a nation. The height of a nation in terms of its greatness is determined by the depth of its moral goodness.
SPEAKER 12 :
a return to, as our founders would say, nature and nature’s God. Absolutely. That was the premise.
SPEAKER 06 :
And it seems to me that we have— And by the way, by the way, on that thought, that is an embrace of truth even without having to embrace the evangelistic nature of the Scripture.
SPEAKER 12 :
The natural law.
SPEAKER 06 :
The natural law.
SPEAKER 12 :
It’s not necessarily the gospel, but it’s recognizing there are rules that we need to acknowledge.
SPEAKER 06 :
And so that was what America was founded on. Not everyone was a born-again believer, but they understood there were rules that were put in place by the creator. And if we wanted to succeed, we had to operate within those guidelines and boundaries.
SPEAKER 12 :
It seems that… Mainstream America has decided what it wants to say no to. And I think leftism is actually logically connected to secularism because if there is no God, then there are no rules. And if there are no rules, I can do whatever I want. And if I can do whatever I want, then transgenderism and everything else that secularism offers actually makes sense.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right.
SPEAKER 12 :
And we’ve tasted that and seen that it is lousy as a culture. And we’re not apparently interested in that. And of course that’s, I think some sign of like our feet still on the ground and that’s good. But do we know what we want to say yes to? Because there’s still this desire of I wanna be in charge. I don’t want insanity, but is this a moment for the church to remind the culture about nature and nature’s God and the gospel, the really ultimately good news eternally, but the fact that there is a better path that we have had experience with, in fact, of recognizing reality and the one who created reality, But it seems to me that middle America might know what they don’t want, but are we sure what we want yet? And is this an opportunity for the church to kind of step into that void and say, this is what we need to be saying yes to again?
SPEAKER 06 :
I think it’s essential that we do. In fact, I was just thinking, I was trying to think of the passage in Scripture where the house is cleaned out, the demonic spirit is removed and the house is clean, but it’s not filled with anything else. And so the spirit goes out wandering in the desert places and says, hey, you know what? Why am I out here? Let me get seven of my friends and I’m going to go back to that place since it was all cleaned up, but nothing’s in it. And so we can push things out, but unless we fill it, that vacuum will be filled with something else and the latter will be worse than the former. And so I do think that if we just say no to transgenderism and to the woke policies, the DEI, it’s going to be filled with something else by a different name unless we go back to that fundamental truth. And that is what this nation was founded upon, upon biblical truth. principles. Now, in terms of the church, the church must preach, teach the gospel unapologetically without any limitations. In public policy, we can sometimes arrive at consensus by the appealing to natural law, and it’s a different setting, although we don’t in any way back away from our Christian teaching and views, but natural law, as Paul talked about in Romans 2, it’s inscribed upon people’s heart. And so we need to appeal to that which is inscribed upon the heart that has not yet been fully realized by the soul.
SPEAKER 12 :
Well, there you have it, folks, at least for today. There’s much more to this special interview with FRC’s Tony Perkins joining me on the Outstanding Podcast. If you’d like to hear the podcast in its entirety, go to TonyPerkins.com and click on the link in today’s program notes. Or go wherever podcasts are found and subscribe to the Outstanding Podcast with me, Joseph Backholm. As we wrap this edition of Washington Watch, I’d like to invite you once again to join us in shining the light of biblical truth. Your gift by December 31st will be doubled through our limited time only challenge match. Text LIGHT to 67742 to give today and protect faith, family, and freedom in 2025. Thanks again for joining us today. God bless you and have a Merry Christmas. And as we head into the new year, I encourage you to remember the principle taught throughout scripture, fear God and nothing else. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
SPEAKER 02 :
Washington Watch with Tony Perkins is brought to you by Family Research Council and is entirely listener supported. Portions of the show discussing candidates are brought to you by Family Research Council Action. For more information on anything you heard today or to find out how you can partner with us in our ongoing efforts to promote faith, family, and freedom, visit TonyPerkins.com.
