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In this special episode, Kim Munson brings you the incredible life and legacy of General Jimmy Doolittle. Learn how his countless contributions to aviation and military strategy shaped the Allied victory in World War II. Through the memories of his granddaughter, Jonna Doolittle-Hoppiz, gain a personal perspective on his daring exploits and the supportive family that stood by him through every challenge. A story of bravery, intellect, and relentless pursuit of excellence.
SPEAKER 01 :
World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Afghanistan, and our other wars and conflicts. America’s fighting men and women strapped on their boots and picked up their guns to fight tyranny and stand for liberty. We must never forget them. Welcome to America’s Veteran Stories with Kim Munson. These stories will touch your heart, inspire you, and give you courage. We stand on the shoulders of giants. Here’s Kim Munson.
SPEAKER 07 :
Welcome to America’s Veterans Stories with Kim Munson. Be sure and check out our website. That is AmericasVeteransStories.com. And this show precipitated from a trip that I took in 2016 with a group that accompanied four D-Day veterans back to Normandy, France, for the 72nd anniversary of the D-Day landings there in Western Europe. to get a toehold in Europe to fight Hitler, ultimately defeat him and the Nazi regime there. Return back stateside, realizing that these stories are so important. Each individual story is unique. But we’ve got a really special story for you today, and that is the story about the Doolittle Raid over Japan. And on the line with me is his granddaughter, Jimmy Doolittle’s granddaughter, and that is Jonna Doolittle-Hoppiz. And, Jonna, it is great to have you on the show here. Well, Kim, thank you for inviting me. I look forward to visiting today. Your grandfather was a remarkable man. As I was looking at the whole Wikipedia explanation on him, I had always known or heard about the Doolittle Raid. But it comes after a rather remarkable career. But he was your grandfather. So tell us about your grandfather.
SPEAKER 08 :
You know, it’s funny. You hear of all the things he did in his life, but as a kid, he was just Grant. And he was the one that was fun. He played with us. He made us laugh. He also was someone, you know, growing up that I could go to. My dad also was in the Air Force, so we traveled a lot. But my grandparents’ home was sort of Doolittle Central, where we gathered every year as a family. The things I remember most about him are his sense of humor, his ability to analyze things, and the fact that he could talk on anyone’s level. He could be talking with a top scientist and then turn around and get on his knees and talk with a young scout and give them the same amount of attention and interest in what they have to say.
SPEAKER 07 :
Do you not think that that probably was something that was very important that he brought to the Doolittle raid, the ability to communicate? And it sounds to me like make each and every individual that he was communicating with feel important and that he believed in them. Because he did.
SPEAKER 08 :
He believed that you led by example. He never asked his men to do anything that he wasn’t willing to do. In fact, when it came to qualifying as a pilot for the raid itself, he made himself go through the same tests and the same training that his pilots did. In other words, he didn’t just assume he’d get a slot. He earned the slot. And he led that way with every single assignment he had. You know, he was part of World War I way back in 1917. and did a lot of things through the military, and then went on beyond the raid to be commander of the 12th, 15th, and 8th Air Forces throughout Europe.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, he was born in 1896. He died in 1993, and again, a remarkable career. He received the Medal of Honor for the Doolittle Raid, and he was a general when he, I guess, retired. He retired, is that correct? He retired. Okay.
SPEAKER 08 :
Actually, he went back from active duty into the reserves and then retired out of the reserves. And, you know, he also was awarded the Medal of Freedom, the Presidential Medal of Freedom. So he’s the only person to have ever received both.
SPEAKER 07 :
Oh, my. I just got chills as you mentioned that. That is pretty amazing. Let’s talk a little bit about, as I was looking at this, a man of just tremendous pushing the envelope and courage because he served as a flight instructor during World War I, and so training pilots to be able to go into combat. And that was on the leading edge of air warfare at that time.
SPEAKER 08 :
You know, it’s funny because he was always disappointed that he didn’t get sent over to Europe in World War I and was retained back in San Diego. And I think that’s pretty much what made him the pilot that he became because he always pushed himself. He spent more time in an airplane flying different maneuvers than probably anybody else throughout history. In fact, when Air and Space Magazine, Smithsonian’s Air and Space Magazine, named him the top pilot in history, which our family was pretty honored to have that happen. But he did push himself. And throughout flight tests, he pushed himself, he pushed the equipment. And I think what a lot of people don’t realize is by the time he served in World War II, he had a doctorate. of science and aeronautical engineering from MIT. So he wasn’t just a, quote, hot dog pilot. He also was a scientist. He had a good grasp on what he was doing and what he wanted to do.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, and tell us a little about your grandmother, because what I have learned is there is always a family behind there that is supporting. And, of course, I’m not sure how I would really think about all of this testing, this aeronautical testing, although it was so important. But tell us about your grandmother.
SPEAKER 08 :
You know, I adored my grandfather, but I worshipped my grandmother. She was an extremely intelligent woman. She had actually a photographic memory. And during World War I, while he was down in San Diego, she actually worked at the shipping yards in San Pedro and was pretty much the security because she knew everybody who could get in and had a right to be down there. They met in high school. She was about six months older than he was. And they fell in love, and they spent their entire lives together. But she was sort of the rudder. As you read about him, you’ll find that he was pretty playful and pushed the envelope. Sometimes he was a little ornery. And when he was stationed down in San Diego, one time he pulled a stunt that got him grounded for a while. And his commanding officer, Bob Worthington, actually insisted that my grandmother come down and sort of settle him down. She was pretty much the rudder. And she always gave him that safe home to come back to, that nest that you need to recharge. And so she, I wouldn’t say he wouldn’t have done what he accomplished in his life without her, but she certainly made it a lot easier for him.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, and, Jonna, let’s really think about what he was doing. He was doing so many things that were first time, these test flights and, you know, across the country. We now take all of that for granted. But that was dangerous in some ways. However, I remember from the last interview that we did, and you kind of alluded to this, he wasn’t just this hotshot pilot. He really looked at things from a scientific standpoint, really planned things out, and And I think it’s important that people understand that.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, he, you know, between the wars, the pilots that stayed in the Army Air Corps, they really had to keep aviation in front of the public eye. So their job was really to, you know, stay in the newspaper or stay on the radio. So he did a lot of, you know, set a lot of records, the first coast to coast in under 24 hours and then the first coast to coast in under 12 hours. And he pushed the envelope on all of those different types of flights. But it’s because he understood aeronautics. He understood what an airplane could do. He also was the first person to do the first blind flight, to fly on instruments alone. He was invited to be a part of the full flight laboratory, which was funded by Harry Guggenheim. And their job was to develop instruments. And the instruments they came up with were the precursors in what we have in all airplanes today. So he was the first person to get into an airplane, take off, fly a prescribed course, and land without ever being able to see the ground. So he really understood the mechanics of flight. And as a pilot, he knew what he wanted an airplane to do. And as this scientist, he began to understand how to make an athlete do that. So that really was what he felt was his greatest contribution.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, that really is an important contribution. And once again, I’m thinking the first time to ever do that. He really stepped into this with courage, though, because of, I think, his scientific background. And I just see a tremendous amount of courage in what he did in this remarkable career.
SPEAKER 08 :
You know, he… A lot of people thought he was risky, but his risks he took were calculated. As I said, he understood the science behind him. Also, you know, for example, he did the first outside loop, which is, you know, level flight going into a steep decline, inverted flight, and then a steep return to level flight. And they thought that a pilot wouldn’t be able to withstand the G-force, and they also thought that an airplane wouldn’t be able to stand it. Well, he would do that by, he would, you know, do part of the loop and continue to do more and more of the loop and land and check the airplane so that he understood, you know, he tested it before he really did it for the public. But beyond that, he also did a paper, a study. His master’s degree was on stress on an airplane. So it looked like this big daredevil thing, but he understood the science behind it. So many of the things he did He would fly in weather that a lot of other pilots wouldn’t fly in, but that’s because he knew every cow on the ground below him because he flew it over and over again. He wanted to understand, again, the science behind it and know what he was doing. So where a lot of people thought he was a daredevil, yeah, he was to an extent, but he also studied it. It wasn’t just this. Half cocktail, I think I’ll do an outside loop today. He knew what he was doing.
SPEAKER 07 :
You know, I really think we can learn from that, Jonna. We’re going to be coming into break here in just a minute, but how many children in the family?
SPEAKER 08 :
My grandfather was an only child, and he and my grandmother had two sons. Both of them were Air Force, and my uncle passed away in 1958. And my father passed away in 2015. And then my uncle had one child, and my parents had five. If you want to go beyond that, there’s a bunch of Doolittles.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, I love that. These stories are so important. I’m talking with Jonna Doolittle-Japes. Am I saying that correctly? Is it Japes? Hoppus. Hoppus. Okay. Jonna Doolittle Hoppus. And she is the granddaughter of Jimmy Doolittle. And today, April 18th, 79 years ago, was the Doolittle raid over Japan. And just really excited that we’re bringing this story to you. Jimmy Doolittle was a remarkable man, and what he accomplished is astounding. Before we go to break, though, this story is brought to you by many of my great partners. And one of those great partners is Hooters Restaurants that are located right here in the metro area. They have five locations, Loveland, Westminster, Colorado Springs, Aurora, and Lone Tree. They have all kinds of specials. whether or not it’s Kids Eat Free, Saturday specials. And now that we’re opening up a bit, it’s great to get together with friends, watch some of the sporting events on the televisions. Go to my website, KimMunson.com. That’s M-O-N-S-O-N.com. And click on the Sponsor tab and go to the Hooters icon. You’ll get all the specials there. I am talking with Jonna Doolittle-Hoppess. She is the granddaughter of Jimmy Doolittle, and we’ll be right back.
SPEAKER 05 :
RE-MAX realtor Karen Levine helps bring to life the individual stories of our servicemen and women. With her sponsorship of America’s Veteran Stories with Kim Munson, Karen honors the sacrifices of our military and is grateful for our freedom. As a member of the National Association of Realtors Board of Directors, Karen works to protect private property rights for all of us. Karen has a heart for our active duty military and veterans and is honored to help you buy or sell your home. Call Karen Levine at 303-877-7516 to help you navigate buying or selling your home. That’s 303-877-7516.
SPEAKER 02 :
All of Kim’s sponsors are an inclusive partnership with Kim and are not affiliated with or in partnership with KLZ or Crawford Broadcasting. If you would like to support the work of The Kim Munson Show and grow your business, contact Kim at her website, kimmunson.com. That’s Kim Munson, M-O-N-S-O-N dot com.
SPEAKER 07 :
And welcome back to America’s Veteran Stories with Kim Munson. Be sure and check out my website. That is AmericasVeteranStories.com. And today is the 79th anniversary of the Doolittle Raid, which was an attack on the Japanese mainland, or I guess the Japanese island it would be called. And on the line with me is Jimmy Doolittle’s granddaughter, and that is Jonna Doolittle Hoppes. And Jimmy Doolittle was a remarkable man, and we’re talking about him. And really, from a granddaughter’s standpoint, when was it that you first learned that he wasn’t just Gramps, that there was all this other part of Jimmy Doolittle?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, you always knew that he was well-known because people would come up to you in a restaurant or… You know, when he’d come to visit, the news would come over. But to us, he was really just Grant. And I had to become an adult, really, to appreciate his accomplishments. So it wasn’t really until the movie Pearl Harbor came out and I started writing a book about not just him but my grandparents that I really could appreciate all of the things he accomplished. So as a kid, you know, when you grow up around somebody like that, they’re just gramps. And what’s the book? It’s Calculated Risk. I wrote it. It came out in 2005. And it’s the story of my grandparents. It’s a memoir of who they were. But it was written so that it’s kind of a funny story. I wrote it to make sure their memory was, you know, what I remembered. But it really became a springboard to do similar things to what you do. I consider myself a professional NAG. I go around and NAG veterans to make sure their stories are recorded.
SPEAKER 07 :
I would say that you and I probably are sisters in that particular endeavor because the stories, don’t you find, Jonna, that the stories are so rich? And sometimes it takes a while, even with this show. I encourage people to be patient as the story unfolds. And what I find sometimes, because we’re constricted by the broadcast clock, is then by we’re getting near the end and the veteran is feeling more and more comfortable, it’s And then I’m looking at the clock thinking, oh, my gosh, there are stories here that I’m going to miss because once they get comfortable. But it’s not that instantaneous thing that we expect in our society right now. These stories have to unfold. At least that’s been my experience.
SPEAKER 08 :
And the people that you don’t even realize, I just did an article for Air Power History on Gene Dietrich, who I’ve known my entire life. And it turns out not only was he a test pilot, he also did a lot of the testing on nuclear and thermonuclear weapons and the effect on airplanes. He was a pilot in Vietnam, saved Dieter Dangler. He did all of these wonderful things, and he was just genius. So the people around you have amazing stories if you just take a few minutes to listen.
SPEAKER 07 :
And it is really important to do so. Let’s go back to the story of your grandfather. One of the things, this is on Wikipedia, is that he worked for Shell. This was in between World War I and World War II. Is that correct?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah. He left active duty for the Army Air Corps in 1930. Now, he’d been a first lieutenant for something like 12 years or whatever it was. And so he went into… the reserves and then took a position with Shell Oil. And his job with Shell was pretty much the same thing that it was when he was in the service, and that was to keep aviation in the public eye so that it would earn its place along the line.
SPEAKER 07 :
And there it says that he worked in the development of this 100-octane aviation gasoline, which I’m trying to read between the lines, but the fact through that creativity, that innovation, they were always working on not only the machine but also the fuel, which all these things, I think, prepared ultimately to success, our success in World War II. Your thoughts on that, Jonna?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, as a… race pilot, he really understood the importance of lead in fuel. And so when it came to beginning to build war machines, he realized that there were engines being developed that could use a higher octane fuel, but nobody had developed the fuel. And it was called Doolittle’s Folly or the Million Dollar Blunder. He talked Shell Oil into developing 100 octane fuel. which eventually was what made us so that we could have the Mustang in World War II, a fighter plane that could escort the bombers all the way over to target and back. So it really became one of the things he was most proud of was the fact that they did this fuel and they could then develop the engines that could use it. And we had longer range and more powerful engines in the war.
SPEAKER 07 :
And you just mentioned something that I hadn’t really realized until I started to do all these interviews, is that early on in the war… Now, I… Well, actually, I talked to somebody early on in this project that they ended up having to ditch over the Pacific Ocean because they ran out of fuel. But our bombers… It would end up going over the target without any cover. And as you mentioned, the P-51, I’ve interviewed some of those pilots, and they loved that plane. But just think about it. You send your bombers out, and they can only be accompanied or protected for a certain time. And when they get over the target is when all this flak would come up. And the closer you got to the target, the more flak you had, which is – I never realized that until I started to do this project about taking so much flack. Well, it clearly came from the battles that we had in World War II and other battles, of course. But when they finally did get to have cover as they were going to the target, it changed things significantly in the war, Jonna.
SPEAKER 08 :
It did that, and also there was a decision made – in england with the eighth air force where they instead of just flying cover for the bombers the fighters were released with the order to take out the enemy so it was the first time that the fighters were allowed to actually engage the enemy in the air and on the ground and what they discovered was through that the attrition of german fighters made it easier for the bombers to to get to target and stuff that was one of the most controversial decisions that grants made It turned out to be one of the better decisions. And you’ll find out if you ask a P-51 pilot, he’ll tell you the fact that he could chase the enemy was pretty spectacular at that point. He wasn’t tied to the bombers.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, and again, I think that it took time, but it actually changed a bit the tide of the war in that particular development. And so this is a great historical lesson for people to hear the development of the fuel, the development of the machines, the development of policy to change things, to set us up for success instead of failure. of not, and I think engaging in being able to chase the enemy is very important. Any comments about the P-51? Because people that have flown that plane loved that plane. We’ve got a couple of minutes. Any comments on that, Jonna?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, she really gave us the range. You know, the P-40… to take the Palmers just so far over target. But by the time you got to the P-51 with the larger engine and the higher octane fuel, she actually gave us more coverage than we’d ever had before. So she had a big role in our victory in World War II.
SPEAKER 07 :
And I can’t remember, was it only the pilot on a P-51 or was there two people on that? No, just the pilot.
SPEAKER 08 :
Now, there were a few trainers. You know, a couple of them or a few of them had a second seat. But, no, basically it was the pilots flew alone.
SPEAKER 07 :
And, again, I just think it’s so remarkable when we think about P-51s going out. And explain. like a bomber formation. Again, this is something that I learned, but there was a formation as they would, and again, this was over Europe, but there were different levels, and then they had the cover on the side. Explain that to our listeners, Jonna.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, the bombers, if you’re talking about, say, the 8th Air Force, the bombers came from different bases, and they were given positions in the bomber stream. So they would fly at different levels. They would fly… But they would fly in an overall formation, each group having its own formation within it. Now, there are people that are much smarter about this and know a lot more about it than I do. But, you know, some of the stories that come out of the 8th Air Force where maybe the lead plane didn’t quite hit its mark and there would be a gap and the Germans would come up between the groups. I mean, the bloody 100th. has some remarkable stories of what it was like when they would fly in formation, and a particularly sad one when the Germans came up between the groups and pretty much decimated the entire flight.
SPEAKER 07 :
We take for granted, I think, the courage and the sacrifice of so many. We’re going to go to break, Jonna. And when we come back, let’s talk about the Doolittle Raid, which is remarkable. It happened 79 years ago today. But before we do that, this show is brought to you by some of my very great sponsors. And on the line with me is one of those great sponsors, and that is Hal Van Herke. He is the owner of Castlegate Knife and Tool. It is a family-owned business located right here in Sedalia, Colorado. They have the most extensive knife selection west of the Mississippi for sure. Hal Van Herke, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you, Kim. It’s always a pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, and you are a sponsor of both the Kim Munson Show as well as America’s Veterans Stories with Kim Munson. You are a veteran, Hal Van Herke.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, I was a veteran in terms of being in both the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard. And so I managed to hit two different branches of service. And my father… was a veteran in World War II, which is going to be pretty relevant to our conversation today, I think.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, definitely. And before we get into that, Hal, because you have such an appreciation, a reverence for our military personnel and our veterans and our first responders, they get a discount at Castlegate Knife and Tool all day long, correct?
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah. So we give a discount on all items that we sell either in the store or online. to active duty service members, first responders, veterans. If you walk into the store, if you’re shopping in the store, you just have to let us know. We’ll give you the discount. If you’re online, you need to contact us and we’ll give you a temporary discount code that you can use for any of your purchases.
SPEAKER 07 :
And do they have to show any identification for that or how does that work?
SPEAKER 06 :
We usually ask some kind of challenge and code passwords or something like that. But, no, yeah, it depends on this. You know, we usually like to see some kind of form of ID. It doesn’t have to be the official ID, but if they have something stamped on their driver’s license from a state ID or something like that, that will work, too.
SPEAKER 07 :
Perfect. I so appreciate that you appreciate our veterans and our military personnel and our first responders. Hal, this is an amazing day, 79 years ago today. Yes. Jimmy Doolittle, 45-year-old Navy guy. No, Army guy. He was Army because this was a joint Navy-Army operation. They did the Doolittle raid over Tokyo, over Japan. It was 80 guys, 16 medium-sized bombers, taking off from an aircraft carrier, the Hornet, in the Pacific. First time this had ever happened 79 years ago. Today is when it occurred. I just get chills when I think about it, Hal.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, the Doolittle Raid is one of the most famous events in World War II. It’s very close to… from my heart because my dad was also in the Army Air Corps in World War II. He flew in both the Army’s equivalent of the DC-3, but also in the B-25 Mitchell bomber as well. He was not on the Doolittle raid. He joined the war effort. He was much younger. He joined it later in the effort, putting the station in the Philippines and all over the Asia-Pacific. region, but I just remember my dad telling me about Colonel Doolittle himself and the men that were on that mission as being the most the best pilots and the most courageous men he had ever met. I don’t know if it was met, but he was trying to tell me when I was a young kid that those men were And they took off from the carriers knowing that they had no chance of a safe landing and did it anyway and had a successful mission. It was really critical at the time. So it was one of the first stories my dad told me as a kid. Okay.
SPEAKER 07 :
And that’s the same with me, Hal. My dad told me about this story. And so it’s just so great to be talking with Colonel Doolittle. He became a general, but Colonel Doolittle’s granddaughter, Jonna Doolittle Hoppus. And I so appreciate you, Hal Van Herke, and Linnea as well, for being a sponsor of this show because we are doing something I think super important, Hal.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yes, and we appreciate doing it for the same reason. We honor our vets and appreciate them. great for our vets.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, sounds great. And thank you so much, Hal Van Herke. We’re going to be right back with Jonna Doolittle-Hoppis.
SPEAKER 04 :
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SPEAKER 07 :
Welcome back to America’s Veteran Stories with Kim Munson. Check out our website. That is AmericasVeteranStories.com. And on the line with me is Jimmy Doolittle’s granddaughter, Jonna Doolittle Hoppus. And he has written a book, Calculated Risk, and it is about her grandfather and her grandmother’s lives, and I would highly recommend that. I do have that book, Jonna. I have not read it all yet, but that’s on my list of things to do. But this Doolittle raid, I remember hearing about it, but I never really understood it until I started to do some research on this. This was something that was really remarkable. It occurred about four months after the attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbor. And another thing people don’t realize is the Japanese didn’t stop at Pearl Harbor. Within about a day, they had taken over the Philippines. They had a battle plan where they wanted to take over the Pacific Ocean. And so this was a really big deal just four months later. Think about it, my friends. There is an attack on American soil. And think about the American ingenuity and creativity and courage to step forward and say we’re going to do something about it. So tell us about that, Jonna.
SPEAKER 08 :
I think one of the first things to realize is that at that particular time, the Pacific had really become pretty much a Japanese lake. We’d had nothing but defeat. Now, right after Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt called his chiefs of staff together, and he wanted to find a way to retaliate against Japan. And, you know, Gramps is credited with this wonderful idea of taking bombers off an aircraft carrier, but the truth is it wasn’t his idea. It actually came from a submariner, a guy by the name of Captain Lowe, who was flying over a training field, and as the shadow of his airplane passed over the outline of an aircraft carrier, he wondered if we couldn’t take land-based bombers off a carrier. And so he, you know, elevated up the chain of command to Admiral King, and Admiral King called General Arnold, Cap Arnold, and asked him, and Arnold called in my grandfather, not because he was a hot dog pilot, but because he was a scientist. And Gramps came up with the B-25, which is exactly the same plane that the Navy had suggested, really the only plane that could be carried on an aircraft carrier because of wingspan. But, you know, so often he’s credited with this marvelous idea, but it’s really, yeah, you have to give credit to the Navy.
SPEAKER 07 :
Sometimes that’s hard in between services, isn’t it?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah. Well, you know I’m an Air Force brat, so I always have to put that little thing in there. But truly, the other really interesting thing about it was it was the first joint mission between the Army Air Corps and the Navy. So it set a lot of different high marks. But it was very innovative because we actually were able to strike Japan in a surprise attack.
SPEAKER 07 :
Now, tell us about the B-25. Now, is it considered a heavy bomber or not?
SPEAKER 08 :
No, she’s a smaller bomber, so you wouldn’t really call her a heavy like the B-17s or the other planes. She was a medium-sized plane. It’s really funny because the guys, they didn’t know what the mission was. And so the Hornet was a brand-new aircraft carrier. And our guys were, you know, somebody said, why didn’t you have more experienced pilots? Well, they were the most experienced pilots because the B-25 hadn’t been really flown that much or hadn’t been around that long. But here they load her up, you know, load this aircraft carrier with all these B-25s in Alameda, and everybody thinks they’re just delivering planes someplace. And they’re all very disappointed. You know, they’re not sure why they’re doing this. And it wasn’t until they were out to sea that they announced on the ship that, oh, at that point, you know, the Navy guys and the Army Air Corps guys, they, you know, they had this rivalry going. And as soon as they announced that this task force was bound for Tokyo, it united both. I didn’t mean that the Navy guys didn’t still beat the guys, Air Force guys or Army Air Corps guys in poker. But, you know, it united this task force. and the mission, and they were pretty proud of the fact that they were going to be the first ones to really strike it.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, you mentioned that your grandfather had to compete for his position. Tell us about that.
SPEAKER 08 :
What do you mean? As far as doing it, he’s the one who said that. He was given the head of the force of the mission. He was named the head of the mission. But as far as the pilots go, he did the same test on takeoff that every single one of those pilots had to do to be able to fly on the mission. They trained 24 crews. Only 16 planes made it on the aircraft carrier, and only 16 crews could take off. All 24 crews actually went on the. on the mission.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, because you’d have to have backup for sure. Right. And how many guys on the crew of a B-25? There were five.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 07 :
So there were basically 60 guys that had been chosen, and they knew that this… There were 80. Excuse me. I guess I should be able to… Math used to be my subject. I guess it’s not this morning. Okay, so 80. They knew this was very, very dangerous, but yet they volunteered, right, to do this? Right.
SPEAKER 08 :
They knew it was a dangerous mission and that anyone could step out from the very beginning. They didn’t know specifically what their mission was. Now, there were a handful that had an idea, but it was so secret. They didn’t even really brief the White House. They told the White House they had something going, but they never briefed. briefed the president of the White House on what the mission actually was. We didn’t want it to get out because, think about it, at this point in time, Pearl Harbor had decimated our Pacific fleet. On this particular task force, we had two aircraft carriers. So they really didn’t want Japan to know that we were coming.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. And were all the planes on one aircraft carrier or was it two? All the bombers were on
SPEAKER 08 :
on the Hornet. And then the Nemets had, not the Nemets, I can’t think of the name of the other aircraft carrier, I’m sorry, but Nemets was in charge. The other aircraft carrier had the Navy planes, the fighters that could protect them.
SPEAKER 07 :
So they did have some protection, but not all the way in, did they?
SPEAKER 08 :
The fleet, the fleet did. Okay. Well, for example, You know, they knew that if they were spotted, they had just a couple of choices. If they were spotted too far off the islands of Japan and they couldn’t take off and land somewhere, those airplanes were going to be pushed off the side of the deck of the Hornet and bring the fighters up to protect the fleet. So the fighters were not there to protect the bombers. The fighters were there to protect the fleet.
SPEAKER 07 :
And how did they prepare these pilots on the land for this aircraft, you know, getting off the aircraft? How did they practice that?
SPEAKER 08 :
They were taken down to Eglin Field in Florida, and they were actually trained by a Navy pilot and trained. They had a short runway, and they just had to keep practicing until they could take off before the end of the mark on the runway. So it was just something that didn’t take them that long to train. They were up and going. Like you said, the actual attack on Japan was just barely four months after they attacked Pearl Harbor. But they were trained down in Eglin Field on short takeoffs. And also very low flight.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. And was the mission low flight as well?
SPEAKER 08 :
Part of it. When they hit the islands, they did, well, yeah, they did, some of them did some skimming along the water on the way over to keep out of any kind of visual contact. And, you know, the bombing over the islands itself, they would come up high, bomb, get away, and then did a fairly low flight. back over to China, toward China.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. And as they were practicing, they obviously probably didn’t have the full fuel load, which, as I’ve looked at the pictures, as they came off of those aircraft carriers, many of them went down and then had to climb. But they weren’t quite sure because they needed as much fuel as possible. And that, I mean, I found that fascinating as I watched those go off the aircraft carrier. I’d recommend that people check that out.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, yeah, I was going to say one of the things that they did was, okay, when they were in Eglin, they stripped the bombers down to minimum weight. They had to be as lightweight as possible, even removing the tail gun. They had a couple of broomsticks painted black in the tail. to make you think there were guns in it. But they stripped those planes out to their minimum weight. And then they did a rubber bladder of fuel that laid along the fuselage, and then another bladder of fuel that was in the turret. And when they took off, you have to think about this, when they took off, they had five men, four bombs, and the entire aircraft was filled with these bladders of fuel. because they needed it to be able to take off and bomb the islands and then make it to the airstrips in China. What happened was they were spotted 250 miles further off the coast of Japan than they planned. And so the decision was made to take off and go ahead and complete the mission. And they actually took… oil cans or kitchen cans, they filled them with fuel and each airplane got an extra 10 cans of fuel to be added to the bladder during flight. And they were all collected together and dropped at once rather than trying to leave, you know, they were afraid of leaving a trail back to the task force. But that became the critical thing. By the time those boys took off, The bombers weighed more than a fully loaded B-25. They were in a storm in 30-foot swells, and they took off in daylight, all against what they had planned originally.
SPEAKER 07 :
Remarkable. So your grandfather, I was trying to calculate, he was what, like 45-ish or 46-ish? Yep, he was an old man, 45, yeah. But the rest of the guys were pretty young, yes? They were all kids.
SPEAKER 08 :
They were all kids. I think the youngest was Dave Paul, who was early, late teens, early 20s. And, yeah, Gramps was the oldest at 45. But all of them were young, young men.
SPEAKER 07 :
And, of course, I find that astounding that they were all kids, basically. But then also, here you’ve got your grandfather. The mission, I don’t think, would have been successful. I mean, I’m being very subjective, but the leadership and the courage to have, quote, unquote, the old man be heading up the mission instead of just sending out all those young guys, I think, again, I just think that’s remarkable, John. I just think it’s remarkable.
SPEAKER 08 :
It’s kind of a funny story, you know, because when Hap Arnold and General Arnold tapped Granddad to do the flight, Granddad wanted to actually physically lead it. And so he went to headquarters with Active Pentagon to get permission from General Arnold. And Arnold said, you know, Jimmy, you can’t lead every mission I give you. You know, we need you here. There’s a more important job for you to do here. And granddad was crestfallen. You know, he wanted to leave it. So Arnold felt really bad and said to him, well, okay, Jimmy, if Mitch Harmon, his chief of staff, gives you permission, then it’s okay with me. So Grant saluted him, thanked him, closed the door, ran down the hall, opened the door to Mitch Harmon’s office, and told him, Hap said I could go if it’s okay with you. And Harmon looked at me and said, well, it’s okay with me if it’s okay with Hap. And just as Gramps was closing the door and running down the hall, he heard Hap Arnold on the intercom going, Doolittle’s heading down there, tell him no. So he actually got to physically lead the mission and was the first pilot to take off from the aircraft carrier.
SPEAKER 07 :
John, we’re going to go to break because this whole thing about leadership, we haven’t really, I don’t think, nailed that kind of the way I would like to. So let’s go to break. This is Kim Munson. This is the 79th anniversary of the Doolittle raid over Japan. And I’ve got on the line John Doolittle Hoppus, who is Jimmy Doolittle’s granddaughter. Stay tuned. We’ll be right back.
SPEAKER 09 :
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SPEAKER 10 :
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SPEAKER 07 :
Welcome back to America’s Veterans Stories with Kim Munson. Be sure and check out my website. That is AmericasVeteransStories.com. And just an amazing story that we have going on today. I’m talking with Jonna Doolittle-Hoppess, who is Jimmy Doolittle’s granddaughter. And the Doolittle raid is very famous. Her grandfather, a remarkable man. I just wanted to clarify, though, he was the old man on the mission, and he had asked General Arnold for permission to, And just re-clarify what happened exactly during that interaction.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. He was tasked to train the men for the mission, but he wanted to physically lead it. And so when he went up to Arnold to get permission to physically lead the mission, Arnold didn’t want to give it to him. He wanted him to stay at the Pentagon. And so that’s when Arnold said, well, if it’s okay with my chief of staff, it’s okay with me. So granddad… ran down to the chief of staff’s office and received permission from him by saying that Arnold said I can leave it if it’s okay with you. And thinking that it was okay with Arnold gave permission, and as Gramps was leaving his office, he could hear Arnold calling Harmon saying, Doolittle’s on his way down, tell him not. So it was just kind of a funny little caveat.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, let’s get over to the mission now. Everything is, and you mentioned this on the last interview that we’ve done, everything was planned, I think, almost to precision, correct? As much as possible. It really was. However, you also mentioned the weather, which is something that you can’t plan for. So think about this. This is, let’s see, 16 crews of five, and most of them just young, young men. And they’re going to go off and take off from the Hornet. But they’re spotted by, what, some Japanese fishing vessels. Okay. And so he makes a decision that they’re going to go, right?
SPEAKER 08 :
The decision was made to go, and they took off, as I said, in daylight. Now, a couple of interesting things happened. Now, first of all, they can’t fly in formation. They want to separate and not be spotted as a group. So they all basically are taking off and going, you know, one after another. Also, remember, they couldn’t line up in formation either because of this fuel shortage. So they all have targets in Japan. All of them hit their targets with the exception of one group that didn’t hit it. And then they head for China. Now, 15 airplanes headed for China and either crash landed or bailed out, ditched in the ocean. One crew headed to Russia. And there’s a story behind that particular crew. They were interned. They were the only plane that landed. The plane was confiscated. The troops were, the crew was interned. But the rest of them hit their targets, basically, and either crashed in Japan or ditched in, or crashed in China or ditched in the ocean right off the coast.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, and Steve had an interesting question in between, as we were talking, as we were in between break, that why didn’t they go to Korea? But, and I’m not sure either, but if they could have, I think they would have, but I’m guessing the Japanese probably was actually controlling Korea at that time, so they had to go on over into China. What do you want our listeners to know about these crews and what happened to them?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, I think one of the things that people need to realize is the raid itself, you know, did very, very little damage. There were 16 planes, four bombs each. So physically there was very, very little damage done. But psychologically it did three things. First of all, it, you know, gave a boost to America because we’d had nothing but losses up until this point. And this was our first victory in the Pacific. The second thing it did was the exact opposite for the Japanese, because the emperor had told them that the islands of Japan couldn’t be touched. And here these Americans bombed the islands. And so he lost faith in it. It was a difficult time for the Japanese. But the biggest thing it did was it made the Japanese change the way they fought the war from offensive to defensive. They pulled troops out of China and troops out of the Pacific to protect the home islands because they were afraid of another attack. The raid itself, three men died that night. One died when he bailed out, two drowned when they ditched. Eight of them were captured by the Japanese. Three of those eight were executed by the Japanese, and one was basically starved to death. Four of them came home. There is an amazing book, if you want to ever read their story, called Four Came Home by C.B. Glines. And it actually tells what those raiders went through. They were tried by the Japanese as war criminals, and they were never going to be released. And it tells the whole story of how they were released at the end of the war and what happened to them over that time period. As I said, one group landed in Russia. Interesting story. The pilot and co-pilot of that group, Ski York and Ammons, spoke Russian. And they were also in Air Force or ended up in Air Force Intelligence. But there’s a question as to what happened to that crew. They were interned for 15 months and then, quote, escaped, unquote. But the Russians billed us for their room and board all that time. And So it’s just interesting things that happened to the crews.
SPEAKER 07 :
And let’s think about these guys on the Hornet. Have you heard anything? I’m just thinking about what was going through their mind as they saw those bombers take off. And every one of them was able to take off. None of them crashed as they took off because that could have been a big risk. I mean, I just wonder what was going through their minds at that time.
SPEAKER 08 :
Are you talking to the airmen or the Navy guys?
SPEAKER 07 :
The Navy guys.
SPEAKER 08 :
We have to remember, you know, this is the first joint task force. And, I mean, it’s their victory, too. They got the Army Air Corps where they needed to be. And they were as much of a part of that raid as the Army Air Corps were. I mean, it was a joint victory. It was a joint task force. And So I think they were equally as proud of what was accomplished.
SPEAKER 07 :
And it is super subjective. And I try not to ask subjective questions like this. But I mentioned, I think, earlier is the fact that your grandfather led that. There’s something about leadership. There’s something about men following another leader that they know will do what he asked them to do. And that’s something I think that’s really important. That is a real leadership trait. Your thoughts on that, Jonna?
SPEAKER 08 :
You know, I think what made Granddad such a good leader is what I said before. He led by example. And he never asked his troops to do anything that he wasn’t willing to do himself. And he proved that over and over again. When he took over the 8th Air Force in Europe, until he was briefed on ultra, on code breaking, he would go out to the airstrips and he would fly with his crews. He’d be in one of those airplanes so that he could understand what they were doing and what they were going through. Until the losses got so great in the Eighth Air Force, he wrote, personally wrote, every single family of anyone who was lost. Throughout the years, you know, the Raiders remained together as a group. They called him the boss. They called her Mama Jo, my grandmother Mama Jo. He led because he cared about his people, and he cared about the mission, and I think he inspired those who followed him because of how much he cared.
SPEAKER 07 :
That’s important. We’ve got just a few minutes left. And you mentioned the losses. I interviewed Major Frederick Arnold, who he’s passed on, but he was a P-51 pilot in Europe. And he was also a sculptor. And he actually, before he passed on, he… sculpted, I can’t remember now how many guys, but it was a bunch of airmen preparing for a mission in the briefing room. And, of course, he talked about how young these guys were. But it wasn’t until that time where he said that we lost over 80,000 airmen in World War II. That is staggering to me, Jonna.
SPEAKER 08 :
It’s amazing, you know, the courage of these young boys. that would take off day after day knowing that the odds of them coming back were slim. The stories of courage, and if you go from bomb group to bomb group to bomb group, you will hear the same stories over and over again of just incredible stories. Not just the bomb groups, but the fighter groups too. And not just World War II. I mean, look around at those of us who are still lucky to have Vietnam veterans around. Listen to the stories of courage of these people that gave everything for us to have the freedoms that we enjoy today. I mean, it’s amazing how many people have stories that you just don’t know. You almost have to ask questions.
SPEAKER 07 :
You do. And actually, I had three uncles that served in the European theater in World War II. And we would get together for picnics in the park in the summer. And I didn’t realize – I knew they – And I’m not even sure. I only knew that one of them really had served. He was a bombardier on a bomber. And I look back, and it’s like I was in the presence of giants, and I didn’t even realize it at the time.
SPEAKER 08 :
They were just family.
SPEAKER 07 :
They were. Okay, I think producer Steve has something he’d like to say.
SPEAKER 10 :
I’m really sorry to interrupt here, but since you started this segment with my observation, I would furiously do a little research here. And the answer to the question is that from 1910 up until 1945, Korea was part of the Japanese Empire. So that’s the answer.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. Thank you for that clarification. And, Jonna Doolittle-Hoppis, we have just about a minute left. What is the final thought that you’d like to leave with our listeners today?
SPEAKER 08 :
I think it would go back to the stories that surround us and that we should encourage people to record their stories. Because if history isn’t recorded, then there’s no way that we will really understand what it costs to have the freedoms that we have in this country. And the stories are everywhere. They’re all around you.
SPEAKER 07 :
They are.
SPEAKER 08 :
Granddad’s is well known.
SPEAKER 07 :
It is well known. And I would highly recommend the book, Calculated Risk, because that’s how we can know these stories as well. Jonna Doolittle-Happas, I so appreciate this interview. And it’s just remarkable. It is on the 79th anniversary of the Doolittle raid over Japan. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, thank you, Kim, for inviting me.
SPEAKER 07 :
And my friends, as we listen to these stories on America’s Veterans Stories, we realize that we live on the shoulders of giants. And so God bless you and God bless America.
SPEAKER 01 :
Thank you for listening to America’s Veterans Stories with Kim Munson. Be sure to tune in again next Sunday, 3 to 4 p.m. here on KLZ 560 and KLZ 100.7.
SPEAKER 03 :
The views and opinions expressed on KLZ 560 are those of the speaker, commentators, hosts, their guests, and callers. They are not necessarily the views and opinions of Crawford Broadcasting or KLZ management, employees, associates, or advertisers. KLZ 560 is a Crawford Broadcasting God and country station.
