Join us for an engaging conversation on Rush to Reason as John Rush and Kevin Flesch explore the complexities of traffic stops. This episode is packed with valuable information for drivers, including the do’s and don’ts of a traffic stop, how to ensure safety for both the driver and the officer, and the legal rights you should be mindful of during such situations. With real-world examples and expert advice, this episode equips listeners with the confidence to handle traffic encounters with ease.
SPEAKER 03 :
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It’s Rush to Reason with your host, John Rush, presented by Cub Creek Heating and Air Conditioning.
SPEAKER 15 :
All right, Hour 2, Rush to Reason, Denver’s Afternoon Rush, KLZ 560. Appreciate you all joining us. As I said, yes, actually, I’ve been saying this the last couple of days, Kevin Flesch joining us now. Flesch Law, Kevin, welcome. How are you?
SPEAKER 17 :
I’m good, John. Thanks.
SPEAKER 15 :
How are you? I’m good. Always a joy having you. And if you were locally, we’d have you in studio, so I know you’re not, but that’s okay. We’ll take you over the phone. there you go in studio as well but you know that’s the way it goes that’s all right lots going on in the news especially when it comes to legal things and part of why i wanted to have you on today was you know a some of the things we saw that happened over the weekend in regards to you know minnesota which is kind of in your neck of the woods and you know talk a little bit about you know just what do you do in certain circumstances and so on but as with anything just because everybody for the most part drives there’s a few people that maybe don’t but for the most part kevin people drive and lots of i feel because i see this on the internet i follow different stories and different you know whether it be on facebook instagram tiktok whatever you see all these different traffic stops and things that happen and the dumb things that people do and by the way and just because i’ve been around you long enough to know that there are certain things that you should and shouldn’t do. I just thought, it’s a good time to have you back. We haven’t done this for quite some time. So let’s start in on the traffic stop end of things. And what are some of the do’s and don’ts of a traffic stop?
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, so from the standpoint of when you get pulled over by an officer, it’s normally for most people because it doesn’t happen to you very often. It’s sort of an unnerving thing. So you’re nervous. It’s one of the most dangerous things that police officers do in their daily lives because they have lots of problems with people pulling guns or doing other things, moving their vehicles, getting hit by cars. There’s just a lot of things that can happen in a traffic stop for a police officer. So you have to be mindful that it’s something that they do on a regular basis, but they’re also worried about their safety. So if you can make them feel as comfortable as possible, then most likely your interactions with that officer are going to be the best possible outcome for you in the sense of them being professional and not doing anything that’s OK. You know, sometimes we see and on the news. So, OK, so really quick.
SPEAKER 15 :
So as we get, you know, and by the way, everything you just said, I appreciate that. So this is a question that, you know, even I have, especially as a car guy, because I at times, Kevin, and I know it’s not always, you know, the officer, sometimes it’s the person that they’ve. pulled over but as a car guy and I look at traffic maybe even a little different than others and you know I have said for years now that I am I’m one of these people that Kevin if you get a special on a busy it doesn’t matter it could be a busy side road could be Parker it could be 225 I 25 whatever You know, you could be out on the interstate. And where I’m going with this is I’ve gotten the point as a car person myself that if you have any kind of a, you know, car problem, especially a flat tire, in other words, a car still running, you’ve got the ability to keep moving forward. Honestly, Kevin, I don’t care if you ruin the wheel. Get off of the road. Go to the next exit. You know, get over as far as you can. Turn your hazards on. But you do not want to be changing a tire on the side of any kind of a busy roadway, freeway, even a city street. It’s just an accident waiting to happen, in my opinion.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yep, I completely agree with you. And it’s the same thing with the traffic stop. Yes. You want to get over as quickly as you can, but you also want to make it safe for the officers. So think about that when you’re going over.
SPEAKER 15 :
So what’s the rule of thumb? Let’s say that I’m on, I don’t know, I-70. and you were driving a little faster than maybe you should have, or who knows what the situation is, and all of a sudden you see the lights on behind you, do you have the ability to slowly turn your hazards on, go over to the right lane, and go to the next exit and get off? Or is that going to make the officer mad?
SPEAKER 17 :
They probably will if it’s a long ways. But if it’s within a quarter, half mile, something like that, that makes sense. Or if you can get to a spot… then maybe the side of the road is wider in those instances so that the officer can come up. Sometimes they’ll also come up onto the passenger side of the vehicle. Okay. So just keep that in mind as well. Maybe give them enough room on that side of the vehicle, depending upon where you’ve pulled over, so that the officer’s safety is considered.
SPEAKER 15 :
And, again, a question that I’ve got is this is – we’re talking now – we’re going to parlay into this. This is daytime because I think there’s some things at night that – We might want to do a little bit differently have questions for you on but this is during the day you can see what’s going on see the officer officer can see you in all of that I mean is there anything else that folks need to do to let that officer know that yep I see you I’m aware I’m going to pull over but you know I’m not going to do it right here because I you know you can’t talk to him so you’re not saying this you know to him verbally but I don’t want to be in danger I don’t want you to be in danger so I’m going to pull up a little further you know how do you do that.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yep. Yeah. So I think the communication would be putting on your hazards or before that, putting on your blinker to make sure that they’re aware that, you know, that they’re behind you and that you’re doing everything you can to move over as quickly as possible. OK, so that you’re communicating in that sense so that the officer doesn’t just think that you’re trying to slowly move away from them, you know, and commit a crime that way.
SPEAKER 15 :
Well, and I think, you know, at least I would think slowing down also lets them know that, you know, I’m not going anywhere. I’m going to turn my hazards on. I’m pulling over. Yes, I may be. In fact, I’m going to be well under the speed limit at this point in time. But I want to get out of the way so that, you know, you as an officer aren’t in harm’s way as well. Exactly. Yep.
SPEAKER 17 :
And then once you’re pulled over, then you just want to be organized. You want to make sure that they see your hands when they come up to the door, that they know that you’re not You know, you don’t have anything that’s going to cause them any problems. And then you just listen to them, see what they have to say to you. You don’t really make any statements. You just take direction from them to make sure that the interaction goes as quickly as possible.
SPEAKER 15 :
Okay, because you and I have talked about this in the past. They come up to the window. Maybe you’ve got it cracked. Maybe you’ve got it rolled down. In fact, I guess that’s the next question. What’s the rule of thumb on when they come up to the side window? Do I have to roll it all the way down? Can I roll it down partially?
SPEAKER 17 :
do yep you want to roll it down so that you can communicate with the officer it doesn’t have to be all the way down it can be partially that’s not a problem so that you can slide them your you know your uh registration proof of insurance if they ask for it and your identification now do you get all of that ready before they come up or do you want to find out what they’re asking for before they actually you know before you actually start rummaging through your glove box Yeah, you can do it easily. So I always say to people that they should be prepared. You always have proof of insurance in your car and the registration may be together in the same location so that you’re not rummaging around too much because they get up to your car pretty quickly. So if you can get that pretty quickly, then do that. If you can’t, if it’s going to be a little bit more struggle or if there’s just some issue, maybe you don’t have your proof of insurance with you, just make sure that they see your hands. so that they know that there isn’t anything going on. And then once they ask you for it, then you can ask them to allow you to look for it where you think it might be.
SPEAKER 15 :
Okay, so one of the things that I know that, because I see this in some of these videos, do you know why I stopped you? What’s our answer when they ask that?
SPEAKER 17 :
I generally would say as little as possible. If they ask, do you know why I stopped you? I would say, no, I don’t, because generally we don’t. I mean, it could be for speed. It could be something completely different. You just don’t know. Okay.
SPEAKER 15 :
So answer is no, officer, I don’t.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, the reason that they’re asking you that is because they’re hoping that you’ll admit that you’re speeding or that you were doing something wrong.
SPEAKER 15 :
Yeah, I missed that red light back there. Yeah, that’s exactly right. I know we’re laughing, but yet these things can come up. And I don’t want to laugh, because to your point, Kevin, there’s a lot of good, solid officers out there. And you’re right. These traffic stops can be extremely dangerous to them, not only from traffic, you know the folks that are inside of the car doing things that they just should not be doing and i would never think of doing by the way to them being injured by others that are driving by you know i’ll get into the nighttime stuff but it can even happen during the daytime one of the things that i think sometimes even officers forget kevin is flashing lights automatically will direct people toward you it’s just a natural occurrence it’s the way our eyes and our brains work And what people don’t realize is, and this is what race car drivers fully understand, where your eyes go, so does the car. So if you start looking at flashing lights, naturally, your hands will go in that direction. And it’s why drunk drivers especially go towards the light, because that’s where they’re naturally attracted. And that’s why, unfortunately, a lot of drunk drivers will end up running into police officers and things like that. We had some tragedy over in the Golden Area this last winter along those lines because of the very thing I’m talking about.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, you’re absolutely right, John. And it’s something that people have to really think about when they get into the situation. You know, you are nervous because you’ve got a police officer behind you. But just being courteous to that officer, think about what you’re doing at that point to make sure that the interaction is as safe as possible for everybody involved.
SPEAKER 15 :
Okay. What if they start asking other questions? What’s our limit on what we should or should not answer as a driver?
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah. So we have the Fifth Amendment in the federal constitution that says you have the right to remain silent. And I think people should take that into consideration when speaking with a police officer. You don’t have to get anything other than your identification and if they ask you for proof of insurance. So beyond that, if they start asking questions of other things, you just have to be a little bit mindful that you don’t have to provide that information, and I would provide as little information as possible.
SPEAKER 15 :
All right, that’s a great segue. I’ve got a text message that just came in along those very lines, so hang tight. We’ll come back and get that answered. Again, if you’ve got a question specifically for Kevin, he’s gracious enough to give us his time today, so please, if you’ve got a question, let’s get those answered. 307-282-22 is our text line. We’ll come right back again. Kevin Flesch with us, Flesch Law. His direct line, by the way, if you guys want to call Kevin directly, it’s 303- 806-8886. We’ll be right back. Listen in to this interview that Golden Eagle Financial, Al Smith, did here just a few days ago, by the way. So give a listen. We’ll come right back and talk to Kevin right after that’s over.
SPEAKER 09 :
We’ve got Al Smith from Golden Eagle Financial with us in the studio here at KLZ. And Al, I know you’ve been helping people plan for and transitioning through retirement for many, many years, but there are a lot of financial advisors out there. What makes you different?
SPEAKER 11 :
Well, a lot of advisors spend a lot of their time touting their company and the sophistication of their planning software with AI and algorithms and everything like that. And some of the graphs and projections are useful, but I think it’s more important first to get to know more about the people that you can help. That involves more than growing a nest egg. The conversation often goes in the direction of a passion for giving back. That may involve skiing with disabled skiers up in Winter Park or mission trips with their church or mentoring young people. That may be involving fighting human trafficking. I know one volunteers and goes all over the country. in their motor home to help assist those victims of tornadoes and hurricanes and so forth.
SPEAKER 09 :
That is really outstanding. How can people learn more about how you help other folks move through the retirement process and plan for it?
SPEAKER 11 :
Well, they can reach me at my office, which is 303-744-1128. And if you choose to come into the office, I will be sure and make one or both of those books that I’ve written available to you. They’re 18 Holes to Retirement and also The Christian Path to Retirement. The books are very short, but they summarize the important steps of I guide my clients through whether they have 20 years till retirement or if they’ve been retired for 10 years.
SPEAKER 09 :
That’s great.
SPEAKER 11 :
And how can people reach you, Al? 303-744-1128 is my office number. If I’m not there, either my office manager will pick it up or it’ll go to voicemail. I return my voicemails very promptly and we can arrange a time to sit down and see how what I do can be of help to you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes, he does. I can vouch for that. Again, it’s 303-744-1128 for Al Smith of Golden Eagle Financial. You can also find him on the klzradio.com advertisers page.
SPEAKER 12 :
Investment advisory services offered through Brookstone Capital Management, LLC, a registered investment advisor. BCM and Golden Eagle Financial Limited are independent of each other. Insurance products and services are not offered through BCM, but are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed agents.
SPEAKER 06 :
putting reason into your afternoon drive. This is John Rush.
SPEAKER 15 :
And we are back. Rush to Reason, Denver’s Afternoon Rush, KLZ 560. And again, Kevin Flesch with us. We’re talking about right now traffic stops. We’ll get into a lot of other things today, and I’ll time this to where we will get at least the things that I wanted Kevin to present today handled. And again, you’re free to ask questions. I’ve got one that’s come in. Kevin, I don’t have a concealed carry permit because I’m not asking the government to exercise my Second Amendment. On the same token, what happens if I encounter the wrong cop during the wrong traffic stop?
SPEAKER 17 :
So if you’re certain that the individual who you’re talking to is an impersonating a police officer, you have to protect yourself. And if that person is using lethal force against you, you can use lethal force to combat that. So that’s the issue. So, um, you know, obviously you don’t want to make the wrong, wrong decision. And it is a real police officer. And then if you pull a gun on a police officer, uh, bad things happen. I mean, we know that, right. I mean, that, uh, You can’t return fire in those situations, obviously, and if that is a real police officer, they have the right to use lethal force if they think it’s necessary. Okay, let me throw another scenario.
SPEAKER 15 :
You’re that person. You don’t have a concealed weapons permit, which, depending upon the circumstances, you may or may not have to have that in your vehicle. Now, there’s new Colorado laws along those lines, and I would encourage everybody to— to read those, and if we need to, we can go over those. But bottom line, Kevin, you have a gun. It’s in your car. You either have or do not have a concealed weapon permit. Do you even need to mention that to the officer during a regular traffic stop?
SPEAKER 17 :
Never. Never mention it.
SPEAKER 15 :
Okay. It doesn’t exist.
SPEAKER 17 :
The only time that you would have to is if they specifically ask you because they have the right to take the gun from you during the traffic stop for their own safety. Okay. So if you have one and they ask you, then you have to tell them that you do and provide it to them. Otherwise, you don’t.
SPEAKER 15 :
Now, remember, too, folks, that the Kevin, correct me if I’m wrong, but the laws we’ve had in Colorado, the safe storage have to do with you being out of the vehicle, having it locked someplace and having that gun locked inside of the vehicle. You traveling with that gun that doesn’t necessarily apply. Or am I wrong?
SPEAKER 17 :
No, I think you’re absolutely correct. The safe storage is relating to when you’re not in the vehicle so that someone can’t break in and get to the gun.
SPEAKER 15 :
Meaning if you’re traveling with that gun, you could be going to the gun range, you could be going home, you could be doing any number of things. Reality is, you know, if you have that with you, you are not breaking the law, is my point. Unless you’re a convicted felon or something along those lines, Kevin, you’re not supposed to have it at all. That’s a whole other story.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, that’s a whole other story. And lots of people and lots of folks that I’ve represented that carry, you know, they have it in the vehicle. They’re just going from place to place, and that’s just the way they live their lives. And so you don’t have to have it secured while you’re in the vehicle. Gotcha.
SPEAKER 15 :
Okay. Another question that came in, the sheriff, and this is a Wyoming question. Sheriff on Wyoming will sit on a subdivision private property road and run radar on the main county road. Is that legal?
SPEAKER 17 :
Yep. So if they have permission to be on that road, it’s legal. Otherwise… the officer may be trespassing. But he can do speed checks from a private location as long as they have permission to do so. Okay.
SPEAKER 15 :
So if he doesn’t, that might be an issue, and that would be more of where you’d have to ask that particular subdivision, does that officer have permission to be there or not, I guess, if you wanted to go that direction.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah. I actually had recently, well, within the last couple of years, My home is in Greenwood Village, but it’s actually not in Greenwood Village. It’s in unincorporated Arapaho. And there was a Greenwood Village officer in our subdivision doing checks of a particular road that was in Greenwood Village. And she happened to pull me over when I turned right into my subdivision. And I was like, hey. And she said, yes, that’s true, but I’m looking at the road that was Bellevue. That’s part of Greenwood Village. And so she felt she had jurisdiction. She just gave me a warning after I suggested that maybe she didn’t. But it is one of those things that comes up. That’s the advantage of being a lawyer. Yeah. Well, I was nice about it. I was just kind of curious because I’m like, well, you know, because our particular subdivision had tried to become part of the city of Greenwood Village at one point. And because we weren’t tax positive in the sense of having commercial ventures there, the city wasn’t interested in adding the services that they would have had to add. So when one of their police officers is sitting in our street, I was just like, hey, how does this work? Because You’re not technically in Greenwood Village right now where we’re sitting. So it was just interesting.
SPEAKER 15 :
No, it is interesting. Next question. Got a school bus ticket. School bus was back in a private subdivision, not publicly owned roads. I put on my hazards after sitting there for seven minutes and then drove past the bus. The bus driver was just sitting there reading, waiting for kids. Still got a ticket in the mail. How is that possible?
SPEAKER 17 :
Oh, is that possible? And got a ticket in the mail from who? That would be interesting because we’ve dealt with those issues. If it’s a photo van or something like that, they still have issues with regard to proper service and proving that you were the driver. So I would need to know more about that. Okay. Because that is an interesting – because normally the bus – It would be weird for the bus driver to be sitting there reading with the little sign that says stop or slow down there because that’s generally what you see. You can’t go around a bus when it’s in that sort of process. But if it’s just a bus on the side of the road, and there’s so many of these school buses now that people have taken. and turned them into, like, tiny homes and things like that. I know, I know. Like the RVs. Right. You just don’t know what they are. Exactly, exactly. So I’d be fighting that.
SPEAKER 15 :
Okay, good to know.
SPEAKER 17 :
That would be a more interesting case to develop.
SPEAKER 15 :
Okay, other scenarios. Officer walks up, and, you know, maybe he’s, you know, gotten your license and insurance and so on. He’s gone back to the car, because this is typically how this works. He then comes back and says, you know, Kevin, can I get you to step out of the car? What’s the answer?
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, the answer is if they give you a lawful order to get out of your car, you have to get out of the car. Now, the next question generally is can I search the car?
SPEAKER 15 :
That was going to be my next question, yes. So then you’re out of the car now, the door’s open, and that officer’s saying, so Kevin, can I search your car?
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, the answer is no. Never allow a police officer to search your car.
SPEAKER 15 :
What if he sees something that he can see from the door being open because you’ve now just stepped out?
SPEAKER 17 :
Yep. So if it’s in plain view, then they have the right to see something that’s illegal in plain view. But otherwise, they don’t have the right to rummage around in your car and search it without either probable cause for a search warrant or consent from the person that was in the vehicle.
SPEAKER 15 :
Well, I have my dog in the back, Kevin. Can I go ahead and let him sniff around while we’re here?
SPEAKER 17 :
No. So it’s really interesting. This has been a new line. I just threw another one at you because that one happens, too. Oh, it does. And the police departments now have a bunch of drug recognition sniffing dogs. Right. And there’s been some case law that’s come out the last few years that the intrusion into your personal space has to be minimized. So it can’t be a four-hour search with the dog. They can do it, but they’ve got to have probable cause to bring the dog in to actually have some. Because it’s just like any other search then, that they’ve got to have some reasoning for doing that extended search. And it’s not just a regular traffic stop. I mean, you don’t get pulled out of your car for a regular traffic stop.
SPEAKER 15 :
in almost 95 of the time so there’s got to be something else going on to give them the right to do that or you’ve consented and again my advice is to never consent to something like that okay because then the because the other thing i’ve seen on certain videos and again you and i’ve talked about this in the past but everybody listening you know listens at different times and so on so i need to go over some of these things is you’re out of the car they’ve you know asked to search your car and you’ve said no And then they say, well, you know, we’ve got a canine unit nearby. I’d like to have them come by and do a check as well. And by the way, they may not be there on location. What’s the answer then?
SPEAKER 17 :
So the balance there is how much time is it going to take for them to do that? And do they have probable cause to have the dog come and sniff around the vehicle? And that’s something that a court will review after the fact. Let’s say they come. You still say, no, I don’t want any intrusion into my privacy relating to the vehicle. And they say, well, too bad. We’re going to do it anyway. They better have either exigent circumstances where they think something is going to dissipate without them doing the search or. they have probable cause to ask a judge to give them a search warrant so that they can do that. That’s the best route. Now, I see it all the time where they don’t do either of those things. They just bring the dog out and they sniff around. And depending upon the amount of time that it takes to do that and the intrusion into your life, the court is going to balance those two interests and make a determination of whether or not it’s unreasonable or Once you get to the stage where you’re charged and we’re at a motions hearing. Okay. So it comes up all the time where the courts make that value judgment.
SPEAKER 15 :
Good to know. Really quick on the school bus end of things. The explanation is it’s Elbert County. They had a picture from the camera on the bus and the arm was out.
SPEAKER 17 :
Oh, okay. Yeah, the arm. That’s interesting. So if the arm’s out, you’ve got to. You got to hang out. You got to wait until, because you don’t know what’s going on with the kids. I mean, it’s just a safety issue.
SPEAKER 15 :
That was probably going to be tough to beat.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, probably. But unless you can prove, hey, I was there 7, 10 minutes. There were no kids around. As I went by, it was clear that he was just reading. He probably just didn’t realize he had the arm out. But then who took the picture and how did they figure out you were the driver? Good point. So those are all things that, you know, they’ve got to prove that you are the identity of the driver.
SPEAKER 15 :
All right, going back to the traffic stop and the answer is, you know, automatically, no, no, no, we’re not going to allow, you know, different things to happen. And one of the things that you’ve mentioned in the past, too, that a lot of you have to really pay attention to is in some cases you are the only driver of that car and you do know everything that’s actually inside of it. On the same token, some of you drive different cars. You might drive a company car. You might drive a family member’s car. You might be borrowing a car. The reality is, Kevin, something could be stuck somewhere that you don’t even know is there. And about the time they start doing some sort of a search and they find something that’s not supposed to be there, you’re now in trouble.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, that’s exactly right. I had a case in Aurora 10, 15 years ago where a guy was sitting in a car. There was a gun underneath the seat. He didn’t even know it was there. And they did a search, and they found the gun, and he was a felon. They said that he was in possession. He didn’t even know it was there. And so we went to trial on exactly that issue, the lack of knowledge, and the jury found him not guilty because of it. But again, that situation, same thing. They shouldn’t have given permission.
SPEAKER 15 :
Yep, got it. Joe, you got a question for Kevin. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 04 :
Actually, I do. Kevin, back to telling the officer you have a gun in the car. I’m not in Colorado now, but I was for 25 years, had a concealed carry permit. And in that 25-year time, I think I got stopped three times. And each and every time, I handed him my license, registration, and my CCW permit. And I said, I just want to let you know, officer, I’ve got a gun in the car. Now, I know I didn’t have to do that, but I thought it was two things. One, I’m showing him courtesy and respect. And also the fact that I have a CCW means, hey, I’m a good guy. I wouldn’t have this if I was a bad guy. And each and every time they let me go. So I don’t know if there’s any.
SPEAKER 17 :
So that’s a personal preference. The CCW, remember, within the last 10 years or so, the legislature has put in place the fact that Probably 25 years ago, the officers could have looked up your name and saw that you were a CCW holder. Now they can’t in a traffic stop, so it’s not something that’s relevant for the stop. And you just don’t know. Most of the time, you get a positive response from the officers, but sometimes, let’s say in Denver, you just don’t know what the political bent the officer is that’s stopping you and how they feel about guns. And so… I think it’s a better practice just not to even mention it unless the officer asks you specifically.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay, well, I thought I’d share my experience with you.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, no, I appreciate it. And if you feel, you know, if you’ve had a good experience and you think it’ll be okay and you get the sense from the officer that they’re going to be sort of more empathetic to your situation because you are a CCW holder, then you take that chance. I think it’s just a better course just to say as little as possible.
SPEAKER 04 :
I’m now living in a state where it’s mandatory that you – You identify yourself and tell the officer that you have no choice in Jersey. I have no choice.
SPEAKER 15 :
Gotcha. Gotcha.
SPEAKER 04 :
All right. Good question, Joe.
SPEAKER 15 :
Appreciate it very much. Thanks, Joe. So, yeah, I think, Kevin, and you and I have talked about this, you know, several times in the past, and I’ve passed this along even at times where you’ve not been here, but people have called in and asked questions, even whether it’s, you know, here, drive, radio, whatever, where it’s your best off just – Just saying the least amount possible. You don’t want to, quote unquote, incriminate yourself, because as you’ve said many times to me and our listeners, they’re trained officers and it’s nothing against them. It’s part of their job. It’s part of how they’re trained. They’re trained to extract information, correct?
SPEAKER 17 :
Yep, exactly. Yeah, they’re there. They’re there. You know, they’re they’re protecting people. And part of that is is finding people that are, you know, they think maybe have committed some sort of crime. And so they’re going to do what they can to get the best evidence as quickly as possible. And many times that’s a statement from the individual who’s done it. And so, you know, when you make that admission that, That makes their case a lot stronger. You don’t have to put the pieces together. The pieces are given to you straight out of the person’s mouth.
SPEAKER 15 :
Okay, so I got another question, and this one dovetails into what I was going to ask as well. So I’m going to couch it this way. You’re out of the vehicle for whatever reason, and all of a sudden the officer says, you know, Kevin? Have you been drinking? So I’m going to read this particular question that just came in as well. The sheriff in Nebraska arrested a neighbor kid who drove all the way back from the Bronco game for suspicion of DUI. The kid doesn’t drink. Everybody knows he doesn’t drink. He’s a three-quarter mile from his house. A blood draw shows nothing. Can he explain, can you, Kevin, explain how DUI is so subjective? So that goes back to my question where all of a sudden you’re out of the car, you’re standing there, and the officer says, hmm, John, you been drinking?
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, yeah, so it’s, you know, the DUI, The officer has to have probable cause to give you the charge, and it used to be extremely, it’s just up to the officer. And now with the body-worn camera footage, it’s much better for the person that’s being accused, especially in that situation where you get the blood results back and you’re at zeros. The officer then should have also articulated that maybe you’re under the influence of some sort of drug versus alcohol. Otherwise, it’s just a bad officer and it’s a bad stop. So those are things that you deal with after the fact with the evidence that you get from the DA relating to the discovery.
SPEAKER 15 :
The other thing I’ve heard you say a bit before in the past is on the DOI and the things. Folks, please make sure I’m clear on this. Don’t drink and drive. We’re going to say that forever. That’s a no-no. Don’t do it. I do know, though, Kevin, there’s going to be situations like what I just said where there may be something subjective and maybe you have, I don’t know, maybe you had some gum or something where it makes it even seem like maybe you’re super tired. You’re a little bloodshot. You’ve been up all night. I mean, there’s all sorts of things, Kevin, that can happen along those lines. Maybe all of a sudden the officer is asking that question, and I think – What you’ve always said is pass on the breathalyzer. If they really are dead set on checking you out, make them do a blood draw. Is that still correct?
SPEAKER 17 :
Yes, that is still correct. You’ve got more outs relating to the blood draw. They have to get a phlebotomist. The blood has to be sent off to a lab. There will be a second vial that you can get it retested. And then at trial, there’s just a lot more things that the DA has to do to get that evidence in. Okay. It can be very beneficial to you along that chain of custody if things go sideways. As well, that’s the best evidence relating to what’s actually in your bloodstream. And so if you think, I’m not worried about it, still take the blood test because that’ll show it. You don’t want to refuse. I have a number of cases every year where someone gets really frustrated with the officer because they know they’re not impaired. but they aren’t willing to go through the testing, and then it’s deemed a refusal. Juries don’t like refusal.
SPEAKER 15 :
That’s almost a guilty sign, right?
SPEAKER 17 :
A lot of times it is. I mean, that’s where you start. You can work your way back to not guilty, but people always say to me, and I think it is true that our jurors are like, if you’re not impaired, then take the test. What are you worried about? There’s some people that are afraid of needles. There’s some people that are like, hey, the government shouldn’t be doing this. And I agree with all of those things, but then you’re going to have to fight that line all the way through the case, probably to a jury. Body-worn camera footage is much better. I just finished a trial two weeks ago. It was a straight-up refusal. Didn’t do any standard field sobriety tests and refused breath or blood. But we had really good body camera footage that showed it looked like my client was doing multiple things at once. wasn’t swaying, wasn’t doing anything that would indicate impairment and jury found him not guilty, but he had to go through that process.
SPEAKER 15 :
Real quick on that too, because it’s always a question that comes up even, and I know it can be in some cases, state by state, let’s talk Colorado. So those of you that are in, you know, Nebraska and Wyoming and Kansas and so on, you’ll have to do your own research. But in Colorado, if I want to go ahead and start feeling, Hey, you know, John, you need to step out of the vehicle or, you know, I need you to step out of the vehicle. Can I start filming on my own camera at that point?
SPEAKER 17 :
You can, but I will tell you that the way that the legislature has set up the body-worn camera footage statute, that that officer will have their body-worn camera footage on, and if it’s not on, then it’s today, in 2025, in the event that that officer doesn’t film the interaction with the public, then it’s as if the interaction didn’t happen. Got it.
SPEAKER 15 :
So you’re better off not having your own camera then.
SPEAKER 17 :
Correct. Yeah, because it becomes a little bit more adversarial at that point when you’re filming the filming. And I just had a case dismissed in which the DA couldn’t come up with a portion of when my client was having their blood drawn in a case in Douglas County, and the DA dumped the case because they said, well, that evidence is going to be stricken because it wasn’t filmed. And so it was the basis of their case, and so they dumped the DUI. So I think on balance, you’re better off just doing what you need to do. Don’t worry about filming because we’ll get the film. The body-worn camera footage is pretty incredible these days.
SPEAKER 15 :
All right, hang tight. We’ll come right back. I’ve got a few more questions that have come in. Another caller as well, so hang tight. Kevin Flesch with us right now. Flesch Law Firm, if you want to reach Kevin directly, by the way, 303-806-8886. Mile High Coin coming up next. If you would like a free appraisal of your stuff, your collection of whatever, and you hear me talk about it a lot. It could be coins, stamps, jewelry, watches, you name it. Give David Gonzalez a call today and get it appraised. You want to turn in the cash, he’ll help you with that as well. 720-370-3400.
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SPEAKER 15 :
All right, Kevin Flesch with us, Flesch Law. And Paul, before I go to you, really quick, Kevin, a question came in. Got stopped for using a turn signal too late. Had my tools when I was doing electrical apprenticeship in my truck and got arrested for being in possession of criminal tools. It got thrown out. But is anyone who has tools considered a potential criminal?
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah. I mean, that’s a crazy situation. I’d love to hear more details about it because I’m guessing the officer made a value judgment thinking that the guy looked like he was guy or gal was was in a situation where they may be you know burglarizing places but yeah i mean there’s an example of an officer has the right to determine probable cause and the probable cause in that particular situation was just wrong and police officers are human beings they make mistakes i see it all the time good point and and so you know the the blinker and the tools and all of those things my guess is it was probably later in the evening or early morning, and the officer thought something was strange and made up a charge to stop what they thought was maybe a crime in progress. But, yeah, I mean, it happens. And in those situations, you take the ticket and you go and talk to the judge. Deal with it later. That’s right. Yep, and you deal with it later.
SPEAKER 15 :
Okay. Paul in Denver, you’re next. Go ahead, sir.
SPEAKER 10 :
How are you guys doing?
SPEAKER 15 :
Good, sir. Good?
SPEAKER 10 :
Hey. On that blood draw, I know Wyoming, they have the mandatory blood draw. You can’t refuse it.
SPEAKER 17 :
Well, so this is, I don’t know how Wyoming is, but Colorado is doing this as well, that the officers are going to get probable cause and search warrants for blood now. They’re doing it pretty often in Douglas County on refusals. It’s still being the refusal in Colorado, even if they get a blood draw. Okay.
SPEAKER 10 :
Okay. The reason. The reason I know, well, she’s my ex-wife now. She got a DUI about two and a half years ago, and she refused everything. But the lawyer told us that they had to offer her one of the three ways of doing a sobriety or whatever. It was either blood, breath, or urine. They never offered that. They demanded blood.
SPEAKER 15 :
Hmm.
SPEAKER 10 :
And they took it to court, and she got out of it just because of that. But they held her down, and they held her down and took blood from her arm.
SPEAKER 17 :
Wow. No kidding. Yeah, so I’m seeing that this year there was a case that came out from the Colorado Supreme Court last year that basically is going to be tested relating to whether or not taking the blood is a valid search in Colorado when you get a search warrant. Previous to this sort of line of now the officer’s going to get a search warrant, if you refuse, you just refuse. They couldn’t do anything about it. I’m guessing the Wyoming case that Paul was talking about, Um, procedurally they have to give you options because some people don’t like needles, so they don’t want to get a blood draw. Right. And so then you do the breath test or urine or some other, other choice. Um, but when they don’t give you any other choice and in Colorado, if the officer believes that it’s relating to drugs rather than alcohol, they’re the only test in Colorado is going to be blood. And so they, the officer can make that designation.
SPEAKER 15 :
I don’t want to spend a lot of time here because I think it’s nutty, but yet there’s so much video out there now on this, and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. And I get it. When you start watching one video, you get more of them on your feed and so on. But it’s becoming a bigger deal, I think, just in general, Kevin, and that is the whole sovereign citizen nonsense where the cop pulls up and – You know, you don’t have a license plate and you don’t have a driver’s license and you don’t have this. You don’t have that because I am I am not driving. I am traveling and I have the right to travel and I am a sovereign citizen, Kevin.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah. And unfortunately, that defense just doesn’t go anywhere. Judges get really I’ve seen multiple cases over the years where the person is like, no, this is the case. Unfortunately, and the reason that that happens is you’re still driving on a public roadway that’s maintained by the government. So the government at that point believes it has every right to control you when you’re driving it.
SPEAKER 15 :
driving on those roads and so you but kevin if i don’t ever go to the dmv i heard this the other night if i don’t ever go to the dmv and get a quote-unquote commercial driver’s license because now once i get a license i’ve agreed to everything you just said but if i know if i don’t ever go get a license i’ve not agreed to those terms and they can’t do that that’s what i heard the other night well yeah and that person you my response would be well then you can’t drive on the public roadways so how are you going to use the vehicle
SPEAKER 17 :
When you’re driving around on your 50,000-acre ranch somewhere, maybe that’s different. But when you’re on I-70 or I-25 driving with the rest of traffic, you’re on a public utility. And at that point, the government has the right to monitor and control your… I mean, I’ve been told over the last 30 years multiple times that we don’t have the right to drive. We have the privilege to drive on the roads, which I think as a taxpayer is a little ridiculous. But I also understand where the system is coming from, that it’s a public endeavor.
SPEAKER 15 :
Well, you know, and constitutionally, we have the right to free movement. But, of course, nobody was driving then, so the founders didn’t think about any of this end of things. And the reality is, honestly, Kevin, I think even if they had, I’m not sure they would have slipped driving into that free movement because, to your point, it involves so many other things that really all of us as taxpayers are contributing to.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, I mean, it’s the same way with air travel, right? I mean, I’d love to say that I don’t have to show an ID to get on a plane, but… I do, and I get roughed up every time going through the detectors and everything else. Good point. So, I mean, that’s a choice that people make is how fast you want to travel from place to place.
SPEAKER 15 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 17 :
So if you want to do it on a horse, you don’t need a driver’s license, but if you want to do it on a car, you’re going to need… All right, anything else driving-wise?
SPEAKER 15 :
I’m going to switch over to some of the house stuff here before we end this hour and then continue on into the next hour, but anything else driving-wise that we may have missed?
SPEAKER 17 :
Um… You know, I think people, whenever they have interactions with police officers, have to recognize that these people, generally speaking, I deal with police officers all the time in courts and questioning them and motions hearings and other things, and the vast majority of the individuals who are working as police officers are really good people. And so there’s been so much negative press about about them. And this is from a person that is adversarial to what sometimes what they do. They’re still human beings and they’re still trying to do good things and protect all of us. And they have a super hard job to do. So just keep that in mind when you have interactions with them. You have to protect yourself, but you also have to understand they’ve got a job to do and they think probably that you’ve done something wrong. Then let them do their job and don’t argue with them. Don’t try to get into a an advocacy role in that situation where it’s just not the place on the side of the road to argue. Do that in a courtroom. Do that either on your own or with a lawyer, and you’re going to be better served. And keep your statements to a minimum because what happens is People get frustrated or angry, and sometimes they say things. Now with the body-worn camera footage, everybody’s going to see it.
SPEAKER 15 :
Don’t do that. Okay, as we head, you know, 4th of July, not far away, Independence Day, I should say, and I might even probably most likely replay this program again prior to… So if you’re listening, thank you. So as we’re heading into that time of the year where they could do pop-up DUI, you know, roadside sort of things, Kevin, what’s the rule regarding those? In other words, hey, I know there’s one up ahead. Somebody told me there was one up ahead, and I’m going to avoid that. Can I? Do I have to go through it? If I do go through it, how does that work? And so on.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, if you’re able to see it in advance where it doesn’t look like you’re running from it, then avoid it. Um, if you’re, you know, if you’re in a line of cars with a bunch of other people that are waiting to go through the checkpoint, most likely if you try to pull you in and miss it, you’re going to be stopped on the way as well. So I wouldn’t do that. I would, um, I would, if you see it far enough advanced, try to get around it just like anything else. If it seems like it’s going to be a problem, then avoid it altogether. You know, it’s not any different than all of the different things that are going on downtown with, with these protests slash riots and everything else. If you know where it, If you know where it’s going to be or where you think it’s going to be, stay away from the area if you don’t want to be involved with it. Same thing with these DUI checkpoints. Okay.
SPEAKER 15 :
All right. Good stuff. Let’s do this. I’ll take our last break. We’ll come back for just a minute or two, get set up for the next hour. Cub Creek Heat and Air Conditioning coming up next, by the way, folks. It’s hot. If you need anything when it comes to your AC unit, give Cub Creek a call. Find them at klzradio.com.
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SPEAKER 06 :
Now back to Rush to Reason on KLZ 560.
SPEAKER 15 :
All right, we are back. Kevin Flesch with us. He’ll be with us until 530. His number direct, by the way, 303-806-8886. One last question, Kevin. I drive to Colorado all the time, live in a constitutional carry state, and don’t have a permit. I usually keep the gun in my console vault, but will carry on my person. Am I towing the line?
SPEAKER 17 :
So on person, yes. In Colorado, especially Denver and Boulder, you have to be careful about having the weapon not so basically concealed. So you want to somehow not have it concealed and yet still have it concealed, if that makes sense. Right. And what I mean by that is that you don’t want to have it sitting in the passenger seat. but maybe have it located somewhere where you can certainly get to it if you need it, and also to be able to make the argument that it’s not concealed because you don’t have a CCW. In those two particular counties, they’re really adamant about not having guns in vehicles, and so I always recommend people, if you do live in Colorado, you have a CCW, and you’re fine then. And if you don’t, then it’s more of an open carry sort of situation when you’re in your vehicle. Gotcha.
SPEAKER 15 :
Okay. And, again, somebody asked the question, asked about – go ahead, Kevin, go ahead.
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, the other thing is when you’re traveling like that, the other thing is going through different states. You have to look, if you do have a CCW, what the laws are in the state that you’re traveling through as to how you can have the gun in the vehicle. You know, long guns normally are back in the trunk, that sort of thing. Handguns, I would always suggest carrying it on your person. That’s probably the most defendable position to be in.
SPEAKER 15 :
One last question. If you refuse a field sobriety test and get a blood draw and it’s clean, can the DMV still suspend your license? I’m not a lawyer, but that would be a no, right?
SPEAKER 17 :
So the only way the DMV suspends your driver’s license is either the breath test or the blood test comes back above a .08. And so if your blood test comes back at zeros, DMV will never be notified. You won’t have your license suspended. So it’s an impossibility. Now, if you’d refused the voluntary roadside maneuvers, the standard field sobriety tests, those things are voluntary. So you can refuse those, and I recommend everybody refuse those. They then put the officer in a situation where they have to make a determination before you do these physical tests. And if you refuse, you’re never going to do them, whether or not they have probable cause to ask you to do an actual chemical test, breath or blood. And that’s the thing that causes you potentially to lose your license because of the refusal. The testing results themselves, now, let’s say in a first offense, DMV takes your license, you’re immediately able to get an interlock put in your vehicle and start driving with an interlock. So it’s not like before where you lost months waiting for your license to be off the suspension. Now you’re able to drive again, as long as you do those things to put it back in place.
SPEAKER 15 :
I put many interlock in when I owned my auto shops back in the day, so I’m very familiar with that end of things. Real quick also, here’s one that said, once got cited when a wheel came off of my truck. I just pulled out of the Ford dealer. The cop and the DA said that I was the captain of the ship and still responsible. Luckily, it hit a car, didn’t hurt anyone, went after the Ford dealer in civil court. Yep, and by the way, I’m not an attorney, but that’s how you would handle that.
SPEAKER 17 :
That’s exactly right, and you have a defense at that point. Yep. because I’m assuming they charged them with, you know, a defective vehicle or something like that. Probably. And I don’t, I don’t believe that’s a strict liability crime, so I think they’d still have to prove that you had some knowledge of that defect. And if you didn’t, then you defend yourself.
SPEAKER 15 :
All right, we’re going to move to the home here as soon as we come back. So, guys, stick with us. If you have a question on the home side now, please give me a call or send me a text message. I should say 307-282-22. We’ll be right back. This is Rush to Reason, Denver’s Afternoon Rush, KLZ 560.
SPEAKER 03 :
I’m a rich guy.
