Join Jody Heiss as he fills in for Tony Perkins on this enlightening episode of Washington Watch. The episode opens with a touching reflection on gratitude, covering various topics with key guests, including Congressman Keith Self and Director David Claussen. Together, they explore global issues like the Ukraine-Russia tension, military recruitment statistics, and legislative successes. Discussions offer insight into how a biblical worldview can influence political and social dynamics, impacting today’s conversations.
SPEAKER 07 :
from the heart of our nation’s capital in Washington, D.C., bringing compelling interviews, insightful analysis, taking you beyond the headlines and soundbites into conversations with our nation’s leaders and newsmakers, all from a biblical worldview. Sitting in for Tony is today’s host, Jody Heiss.
SPEAKER 14 :
We thank God for his many blessings and the great success that this country has seen in this short period of time. We draw strength from the love of family and friends, and we express our undying gratitude for the men and the women of the United States Armed Forces. We love them. We pray that peace and prosperity will continue to bless our land, and together we’ll really just keep this great drive going to make America great again.
SPEAKER 16 :
Well, that was President Trump yesterday during the 2025 National Thanksgiving Turkey presentation at the White House. Welcome to this November 26th edition of Washington Watch. I’m your host, Jody Heiss, filling in today for Tony Perkins. Thank you so much for joining us today. All right, we’ve got a lot coming your way on the program today. Texas Congressman Keith Self will be joining me in just a few moments to look back over the past several months and reflect on what we have to be thankful for. And among them will be this.
SPEAKER 01 :
Today, after 738 days, the last 20 living hostages have come home. This is a defining moment. a moment that belongs to the people of Israel and to all those who believe in humanity.
SPEAKER 16 :
Well, that was Israel Defense Forces spokesperson Effie Deferin announcing last month the release of all the living hostages that were being held captive by Hamas in Gaza. Certainly thankful for that. And on the domestic side, there was this.
SPEAKER 06 :
On this vote, the yeas are 50, the nays are 50. The Senate being evenly divided, the Vice President votes in the affirmative. The bill as amended is passed.
SPEAKER 16 :
That was U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance back in July announcing the passage of the one big beautiful bill in the Senate. We’ll reflect on these and other developments. I’ll also be joined a little bit later in the program by FRC’s David Claussen for our weekly Biblical Worldview segment to discuss some of the positive headlines that popped up this week, including… The pushback against radical ideology that we’re seeing from the Department of State all the way down to public libraries in Alabama. And then to close out the program today, I’ll be joined by Dr. Paul J. Lee of Plymouth Rock Foundation. We’ll be talking about the Pilgrims, including their experimentation with socialism. Trust me, you’ll want to hear about that. So we’ve got a lot coming your way today on the program. If by chance you miss any portion of it, the website, of course, is TonyPerkins.com. So keep that handy. And better yet, if you don’t already have it, just go ahead and download the Stand Firm app. through this app, which is absolutely fantastic. You not only are able to access the latest from here on Washington Watch, but you also get the Washington Stand, Stand on the Word, much, much, much more, and it’s all in one place. And this app also enables you to connect with a growing network of believers who are all seeking to engage our culture and our government, and to do it all from a biblical perspective. So if you do not already have the app, I want to urge you, go to your app store, go to Google Play, go wherever it is you get your app, or simply just text the word APP to 67742. You definitely want to have this app handy. All right. As we head into the Thanksgiving weekend, we want to take some special time to reflect on what we have to be thankful for this year. And while some of the battles in Washington and abroad have most certainly been exceedingly fierce and disturbing on many fronts, we should never lose sight of all the good that we’ve seen. We should never lose sight of the good that God is in and of himself. And joining me now to reflect on some of these good things is Congressman Keith Self. He serves on a number of House committees, including the Foreign Affairs Committee, where he chairs the Subcommittee on Europe. He also served our country for 25 years in the Army before retiring with the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. He represents the 3rd Congressional District of the great state of Texas. Congressman Self, welcome back to Washington Watch and Happy Thanksgiving Eve to you.
SPEAKER 15 :
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours, Jody. It’s great to be with you.
SPEAKER 16 :
Well, thank you so much. All right, let’s start off with the news this week of some of the development in the war in Ukraine between Ukraine and Russia. What’s your take on all the talks that we’ve been hearing about this most recent proposal as it’s emerged?
SPEAKER 15 :
Well, I think the 28-point plan was simply hyperbole to get people involved. I’m very grateful that Europe has now decided to participate in this process because they’ve been an obstacle to everything President Trump has wanted to do in the past. So now we’re down to 19 points, the way I understand it. And some of the most egregious points out of the 28-point plan have been done away with. The NATO ban on Ukraine, limiting their armed forces, giving up land. So now it’s up to Putin, I believe. Zelensky has said, I will accept it with some modifications. But Putin is the one that I think holds the key here. because he is the aggressor. He is the one that is actually making small gains now. So I think we’re up to Putin, but I’m delighted that Europe has involved themselves now. They’ve engaged. So I look forward to the process continuing to move forward.
SPEAKER 16 :
Yeah, I do too, and it’s very interesting. I keep waiting to hear about the 20,000-plus children, Ukrainian children that were kidnapped in all of this and how and when will they be returned to their Ukrainian families. Certainly that at some point is going to come out, but we’ll certainly be watching. Let me ask you about this. Also this week, President Trump had a phone call with Chinese President Xi Jinping, and he’s made an agreement. to visit Beijing in April. What’s your overall assessment of how President Trump and his administration has been handling China?
SPEAKER 15 :
Well, first of all, let’s go to the farmers because the farmers needed that agreement on soybeans and lumber and a couple of other things. They needed that. I think the ships are now moving toward China with soybeans. But listen, Xi, we tend to think of them like we did during the Soviets during the Cold War. They’re 10 feet tall. They’re not. Their economy has trouble of its own. So Xi needs to be agreeing with President Trump on a lot of these things. So again, I hope that President Trump goes in with a hard negotiating position to make sure that our equities are met in any agreement that he makes with China. And I think they will because Xi needs some agreements because, frankly, the circle is tightening in the Pacific as our allies step forward to participate with us in containing China. So I applaud the efforts. President Trump is willing to go anywhere, talk to anybody to make a deal and to bring peace. And so I’m very encouraged by this. Let’s just keep our eyes wide open as we do it.
SPEAKER 16 :
Yeah, it really has been remarkable the work that President Trump and his administration have been able to do internationally, for sure. And of course, one of the things we actually had a clip coming into this that we’re extremely grateful for is the return of all the living hostages who had been held by Hamas. That was not an easy accomplishment for this administration either, was it?
SPEAKER 15 :
Well, that entire peace plan is not. When you talk about getting those hostages out when Hamas had absolutely no benefit to giving them up, that was their leverage. And yet enough pressure was put on them, not only by the U.S., but by some of the nations that they consider their allies. So they did give up the hostages. That was a tremendous event that I Frankly, I never I thought we may never see. So, yeah, that was 700 days, 700 days after that. Plus, after that horrific attack, we see the last of the hostages come home. It was a tremendous victory for Israel.
SPEAKER 16 :
It really was. And just the victory of this past couple of years for Israel in the midst of a multi-front war. Really, they have done the entire world a great favor in many of the incredible feats that they have accomplished. Let me ask you this, too. Another thing I think to be extremely grateful for, speaking of war, right here in our own nation, the turnaround period. that we’ve seen in the midst of military recruitment. I mean, just a couple of years ago, we were so far behind all the recruiting goals and now a dramatic shift in that where all the Navy, Air Force, Marines, Space Force, all of them have reached or surpassed their recruiting goals. What’s your take on that?
SPEAKER 15 :
Well, frankly, they now see something worth joining for, worth volunteering for, worth putting their lives on the line for. President Trump has reestablished the credibility of the United States around the world. The world now views our military as a deterrent force. It needs to be strong. And young men and young women around the nation are agreeing. They’re saying, that’s something I want to participate in. That’s something larger than myself. That is something worth my sacrifice. And we’re seeing the results with the recruiting numbers that you just talked about. But it’s all about the viability of our military around the world to actually do their job as opposed to being worried about pronouns.
SPEAKER 16 :
Absolutely. Well, bringing it home a little bit even closer to Washington, D.C., a huge battle, but a huge win was the one big, beautiful bill. That really was a big deal, wasn’t it?
SPEAKER 15 :
Jody, I can’t tell you. That was amazing that we got that done. I will tell you, a lot of the things don’t kick in for another month and a half, just over a month, until 1 January. But once they do, I believe that we are in a position to see the benefits just roll out. because there are so many positives in that bill that once they begin to take hold, once people begin to get a little more momentum, their psyche goes up. I think you’re going to see a tremendous change come from the one big, beautiful bill. But understand, it’s still coming in many ways. It’s not here yet. And we see that and people feel that, that it’s coming.
SPEAKER 16 :
Absolutely. Well, we’re all looking forward to it. I know we’ve talked about a lot of things. Let me just bring this a little bit more personally home. From you and your family, what are you personally thankful for as we enter into this Thanksgiving week?
SPEAKER 15 :
Well, I will tell you, my wife and I are very grateful that we have an opportunity to do what we do in Congress. Because, look, we’ve got a lot of issues in Congress. We hear about them every day from mainstream media. But this nation is still so blessed by God. We need to be worthy of that blessing. We need to be worthy of God’s protection over this nation. So we have another year, Jody. We have another year to participate in the greatest constitutional republic the country has ever known. And to me, that is a blessing that is unsurpassed. It is just wonderful to be where we are today, to be able to go to Congress and defend the values, defend the values that we have that I served for 25 years around the world to defend on the battlefield and in foreign nations, I get to do in Congress. To me, that is stupendous.
SPEAKER 16 :
Well, it is an enormous honor to be able to walk the halls of Congress as a representative of your district and to represent them and represent this country. And you do it exceedingly well. And we are deeply grateful for you. Thank you, Congressman Keith Self. Wishing you and your family a happy, wonderful and safe Thanksgiving. Thank you for joining us today on Washington Watch.
SPEAKER 15 :
Thank you, Jody.
SPEAKER 16 :
All right, friends, when we come back, we’ve got a lot more to cover, so don’t go anywhere. Much more Washington Watch straight ahead.
SPEAKER 04 :
Explore the faith-filled origins of Thanksgiving with a beautifully designed digital resource from Family Research Council. Learn how the pilgrims, scripture, and God’s provision shaped the first Thanksgiving and helped define this uniquely American holiday. As the psalmist says, oh, give thanks to the Lord for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever. To receive this free resource, text Thanksgiving to 67742. That’s Thanksgiving to 67742.
SPEAKER 03 :
In times like these, we need something solid to stand on. That’s why I’m inviting you to join me on January the 1st for Stand on the Word, a daily journey through the entire Bible. Each day, we’ll read God’s Word together, discuss how to apply His truths to our lives, 15 minutes that can transform your year. Join me and thousands of others as we stand strong by standing on the Word of God. Text BIBLE to 67742. That’s BIBLE to 67742.
SPEAKER 02 :
How should Christians think about the thorny issues shaping our culture? How should Christians address deceitful ideas like transgenderism, critical theory, or assisted suicide? How can Christians navigate raising children in a broken culture, the war on gender roles, or rebuilding our once great nation? Outstanding is a podcast from The Washington Stand dedicated to these critical conversations. Outstanding seeks to tear down what our corrupt culture lifts up with an aim to take every thought and every idea captive to the obedience of Christ. Whether policies or partisan politics, whether conflict in America or conflict abroad, join us and our guests as we examine the headlines through the lens of Scripture and explore how Christians can faithfully exalt Christ in all of life. Follow Outstanding on your favorite podcast app and look for new episodes each week.
SPEAKER 11 :
What is God’s role in government? What does the separation of church and state really mean? And how does morality shape a nation? President John Adams said our Constitution was made only for moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Join Family Research Council for God and Government, a powerful series that explores the connection between biblical principles and the American government, equipping you with truth to engage in today’s most pressing debates. We’ll uncover the foundations of our nation’s history and why it’s relevant for today. Join us to defend God’s plan for government because faith and freedom were never meant to be separate. You can view the course at prayvotestand.org slash God and government or on the Stand Firm app.
SPEAKER 16 :
Good afternoon. Welcome back to Washington Watch. I’m Jody Heiss, sitting in today for Tony. Thank you for joining us. All right, for those of you who are regular viewers and listeners to Washington Watch, you know that we generally like to conclude each week with our biblical worldview segment to discuss some of the highlights of the news through the lens of Scripture. But this week, with Thanksgiving coming up, We’re going to shake things up a little bit from our regular routine, and we’re going to bring in our worldview discussion right now. And so joining me for this is David Claussen. He’s the director of the Center for Biblical Worldview here at the Family Research Council and author of Life After Roe, Equipping Christians in the Fight for Life Today. David, thank you for joining me. Happy Thanksgiving Eve to you.
SPEAKER 08 :
Happy Thanksgiving to you as well, Jody. Great to be with you.
SPEAKER 16 :
Likewise. Okay, let’s start with this news that just recently came out that the State Department is preparing to classify abortion and gender transition procedures for minors as human rights violations. Now, this is amazing to me. So I couldn’t wait to get your take on this from a biblical worldview perspective. Why is this so significant that we are reframing this argument now from merely being a moral issue to now a violation of fundamental human rights?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, Jody, in recent discussions, you and I have talked about even a little bit of our disappointment in the Trump administration not working quick enough on the chemical abortion issue with the FDA and HHS, but let’s give credit where credit is due, and this is a tremendous ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE STATE DEPARTMENT AS FAR AS CLASSIFYING ABORTION AND GENDER TRANSITION SURGERIES AS WHAT THEY REALLY ARE. THEY’RE NOT HUMAN RIGHTS, AND THESE ARE SOMETHING, THESE ARE ACTUALLY VIOLATIONS OF FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS, JODY, WE RECOGNIZE THAT GOVERNMENTS DON’T ACTUALLY GRANT US OR GIVE US RIGHTS. GOVERNMENTS MERELY ACKNOWLEDGE, ACTUAL HUMAN RIGHTS THAT ARE INHERENT IN ALL OF US. YOU KNOW, THE UNITED NATIONS, THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS, 1948, OUTLINES KIND OF WHAT MOST OF THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD HAVE ALWAYS WHAT WE MEAN WHEN WE REFER TO HUMAN RIGHTS. EVEN IN THE U.N. DECLARATION, ARTICLE 3 REFERS TO THE RIGHT TO LIFE BEING ONE OF THESE FOUNDATIONAL RIGHTS. ARTICLE 18 TALKS ABOUT THE FREEDOM OF RELIGION. EVEN ARTICLE 16 TALKS ABOUT HOW THE FAMILY IS THE MOST NATURAL This is what real human rights look like and not these politicized categories of gender identity or abortion or euthanasia, things that the Biden administration told everyone were actual human rights. So what the Trump administration is doing here, saying that abortion, gender transition, euthanasia, these are actually violations of human rights, this brings moral clarity to the situation that we should be grateful for.
SPEAKER 16 :
Yeah, absolutely. And as we all know, the State Department’s human rights report literally shapes how the U.S. engages with other nations around the world. So what impact is this going to have as we move away from promoting gender ideology and we start moving back toward protecting life and free speech and religious liberties? What kind of impact could this have on global human rights?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, Jody, I think it’s going to have a profound impact on global human rights because this shift is going to tell the nations of the world that we’re actually protecting children, defending conscience rights, standing for the family. These are the foundations of human rights. Jody, I’ll never forget one of the neatest experiences I’ve had in my professional career is going to Guatemala. I was invited to go down there to present on the life issue. The president of Guatemala was declaring HIS NATION AS THE CAPITAL OF THE CENTRAL AMERICA PRO-LIFE COMMUNITY. AND I GOT TO MEET THE PRESIDENT VERY BRIEFLY. BUT WHAT HE SHARED TO ME, THIS WAS DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, IT WAS HOW DIFFICULT IT WAS FOR HIM TO MAKE THAT DECISION TO DECLARE HIS NATION A PRO-LIFE NATION. AND IT WAS DIFFICULT BECAUSE HIS NATION IS A POOR COUNTRY. DEPENDS ON FOREIGN AID FUNNELED THROUGH THE STATE DEPARTMENT. HE TOLD ME, AND FOLKS AROUND HIM TOLD ME, UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, AMERICA’S DOLLARS CAME WITH EXPECTATIONS THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE MORE PERMISSIVE WITH THEIR ABORTION LAWS. THEY WERE GOING TO ENDORSE HOMOSEXUALITY AND SAME-SEX MARRIAGE. AND AGAIN, HIS COUNTRY, DEEPLY RELIGIOUS COUNTRY, WANTED TO REJECT THAT. But they felt that tension of how do we deal with a nation, with the United States, that is kind of forcing this on us. And so, again, what the Trump administration is now doing through the State Department is saying, we’re not going to export this gender ideology or this permissive abortion kind of framework on other nations. And so this is going to allow nations like Guatemala and many others to negotiate. not have to have that tension between their country’s values, often formed by religion, and these ideologies that are often driving American foreign policy. So I think this is going to signal to kind of the rest of the world that America is back on track understanding where our fundamental human rights come from.
SPEAKER 16 :
Yeah, I think this is a huge, huge deal, and I think the ramifications are going to be felt globally. So, and David, let me just ask if you would, I’d love to keep you over the break. I’ve got some more questions for you if you’re able to. But let me ask you this question before we get to the break. There’s no doubt going to be a lot of critics who would say that this whole approach just politicizes human rights or that it excludes the LGBTQ issues, that type of thing. So how would you respond? to that claim. How should Christians think about what actually constitutes a human right, as you mentioned a little bit earlier, versus just an ideological agenda?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, I think, Jody, what’s important is, again, I would gently say to someone who might have that criticism, you know, human rights aren’t just what any political movement wants them to be. A human right, a legitimate human right, is grounded in what it means to be human, not these subjective categories of identity or these ideological trends. And I think we just need to be honest. THIS IS NOT ABOUT GENDER IDEOLOGY AND ABORTION. THIS HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT ACTUAL HUMAN RIGHTS. AND SO, AGAIN, HUMAN RIGHTS SAFEGUARD UNIVERSAL TRUTHS WHERE IDEOLOGY-DRIVEN CATEGORIES DO NOT. AND I THINK WE’RE NOT TRYING TO ERASE ANYONE’S IDENTITY HERE. WE’RE JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHAT ARE FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS. AND AGAIN, THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD FOR 100 YEARS, GO BACK TO THE U.N. CHARTER, HAVE AGREED ON THESE THINGS.
SPEAKER 16 :
well thank you david if you would again just hang on uh after the break i’ve got a couple more questions i’d like to get to and uh again thank you for joining us friends stay tuned we’ve got much more to cover with david clausen as we look at some biblical worldview issues david of course is the director of frc center for biblical worldview so don’t go anywhere we’ll continue our conversation with him right after the break stay with us
SPEAKER 09 :
At Family Research Council, we believe religious freedom is a fundamental human right that all governments must protect. For years, Islamist militants in Nigeria have targeted Christians and other religious minority groups with brutal violence. Since 2009, 52,000 Christians have been slaughtered. A staggering 89% of Christian martyrs in the world today are from Nigeria. The first Trump administration declared Nigeria a country of particular concern, a designation reserved for countries whose governments engage in or tolerate religious freedom violations. However, this designation of Nigeria was quickly reversed by the Biden administration. Following consistent calls from FRC President Tony Perkins and other religious leaders across the U.S., President Donald Trump has responded.
SPEAKER 14 :
DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States of America, Christianity is facing an existential threat in Nigeria. Thousands and thousands of Christians are being killed. I am hereby making Nigeria a country of particular concern.
SPEAKER 09 :
This is a huge step forward for the protection of Christians in Nigeria, as well as religious freedom across the world. While this opens the door for the US government to pressure Nigerian leaders to protect vulnerable Christians, it is only the beginning. We must continue to pray diligently, work strategically, and stand firm for the protection of religious liberty across the globe.
SPEAKER 13 :
Looking for a trusted source of news that shares your Christian values? Turn to The Washington Stand, your ultimate destination for informed, faith-centered reporting. Our dedicated team goes beyond the headlines, delivering stories that matter most to believers. From breaking events to cultural insights, we provide clear, compassionate coverage through a biblical lens. Discover news you can trust at The Washington Stand, where faith and facts meet every day.
SPEAKER 16 :
Good afternoon. Welcome back to Washington Watch. I’m Jody Heiss. An honor today to be sitting in for Tony, and thank you so much for joining us. All right, for those of you, in case you’re just now tuning in, we’re continuing our weekly worldview, biblical worldview discussion from over the break. And my guest is David Claussen. He’s the director of the Center for Biblical Worldview here at the Family Research Council. He’s also the author of of life after rope, equipping Christians in the fight for life today. David, thank you so much for sticking around after the break. I appreciate that. Of course. All right, I’ve got another question I wanted to ask you because I thought this was really clever, a good move. But there’s a situation in Alabama where the public libraries there are now going to be moving books that are related to transgenderism and gender ideology and all that sort of stuff. They’re going to be moving those from the teen and children sections of the library to the adult sections. And, of course, all of this is coming about as a result of a vote that was held there in Alabama. And the board is saying it’s doing this to put parents back in control of what their children have access to. Now, from a biblical worldview, why is this parental rights issue, this framing as moving books so that they’re in the adult section where they can now determine what their children see? How important is this?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, it’s really important, Jody, because scripture is clear that parents, not the state, not activists, not bureaucrats, have the primary discipleship and moral forming responsibilities for their children. And I think it’s just really important for us to maintain that when schools or libraries introduce some of these radical ideas about specifically about gender and sexuality without parental oversight, what they’re actually fundamentally doing really is undermining God-given authority to parents. Deuteronomy 6 is kind of the proof text where parents are given this discipleship responsibility. So again, credit where credit is due. The folks who’ve made this decision in Alabama deserve to be praised because this is good and this is honoring the way God has ordained institutions of authority.
SPEAKER 16 :
Yeah, I thought it was such a brilliant way of dealing with this issue because the charge is censoring. You’re taking all the books out, you’re censoring. So let me ask you this and let you respond to this. Is protecting children from ideological content the same as censorship?
SPEAKER 08 :
No, fundamentally no, Jody. And because, and even as you mentioned in this decision, the books are simply being taken to a different shelf, to the adult section. Think about children. You know, I have a child who next week is going to turn one year old. So maybe I’m extra sensitive to this right now, Jody. But you think about children. They are impressionable children. AND THEY DESERVE AGE-APPROPRIATE MATERIAL. AND THESE RADICAL IDEAS OF GENDER IDEOLOGY, AND SOME OF THESE BOOKS, JODY, WE’VE TALKED ABOUT THIS, EVEN THE SUPREME COURT AND THE MOCHMOOD DECISION OUT OF MONTGOMERY COUNTY, WHERE PARENTS ARE OBJECTING TO SOME OF THESE CURRICULUM. SOME OF THESE BOOKS ARE WRITTEN TOWARDS PREKINDERGARTEN AGE CHILDREN. THIS IS ENTIRELY INAPPROPRIATE. AND SO, AGAIN, I’M NOT CALLING FOR BOOK BANS OR CENSORSHIP. WHENEVER YOU HEAR SOMEONE CALLING, CLAIMING THAT CONSERVATIVES ARE FOR BOOK BANS, WE’RE NOT. BOOK BANS, YOU CAN STILL FIND THESE BOOKS ON AMAZON. AND IN THIS LIBRARY, YOU CAN STILL FIND THEM IN THE ADULT SECTION. IT’S JUST SIMPLY SAYING THE CONTENT OF SOME OF THESE BOOKS IS INAPPROPRIATE FOR YOUNG CHILDREN. Parents ought to be the ones making the decision for what their children, what is age appropriate for them to engage in.
SPEAKER 16 :
All right, so you bring up an interesting part of this whole discussion. Of course, this decision, as I understand it, is affecting over 200 libraries there in Alabama. But this comes in the midst of a broader national debate over youth access, children access, all this gender identity content, as you just mentioned. So what does this mean? time in our history reveal about the broader cultural clash over what you just said, the definition of what is appropriate for children? And how should the church right now engage wisely in this whole conversation of what is appropriate and what’s not?
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, Jody, this shows that our culture is deeply divided over something as fundamental as really the meaning of childhood. One side believes that children should be shielded from some of this material and really formed and discipled by their parents. The other side believes that children should have unmediated access to some of these adult ideological debates that we’re having. And I think it’s important for the church to respond with clarity and compassion. Again, we’re not trying to be mean towards anybody, but the church is an institution that recognizes the authority that parents have. And for Christian parents in particular that are called to disciple and form the immoral imagination of their children, again, decisions like the one coming out of Alabama that we’re talking about, this is good. It ought to be emulated across the country. And again, Ephesians 4.15, we speak the truth in love, and it is loving to protect our children from some of this divisive material that is driven by these harmful anti-Bible, anti-biblical ideologies.
SPEAKER 16 :
Absolutely. Well, David, one final question as we’re about to enter into Thanksgiving. Anything that you would like to say that you’re thankful for or that you’d like to close out in the next 30 seconds or so?
SPEAKER 08 :
Absolutely. Think about the opportunities so many of us are going to have sitting around the Thanksgiving table with friends and family, especially those who might disagree with us. My encouragement, again, speak the truth in love going into these conversations. Have some scripture at the ready. Romans 3.23, Romans 6.23, John 3.16, maybe John 14.6. Prepare yourself for some of these conversations that might come up to, again, speak the truth in love with your family. Great opportunity to do that at Thanksgiving.
SPEAKER 16 :
David Claussen, director of the Center for Biblical Worldview here at FRC. Thank you so much. Happy Thanksgiving to you. All right, friends, coming up, we’re going to have a direct conversation about Thanksgiving and something the pilgrims did as it relates to socialism. Stay tuned. We’ll be back.
SPEAKER 12 :
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SPEAKER 03 :
For over 4,000 years, the Jewish people have had legal, historical, and biblical ties to the land of Israel, especially the heartland of Israel, Judea and Samaria, which much of the world still calls the West Bank. To Israelis, Judea and Samaria is far more than a name. It’s the center of their ancestral homeland where nearly 80% of the Bible’s events took place. Abraham purchased property in Hebron, Jacob in Shechem, Joshua made an altar on Mount Ebal and led the Israelites into a covenant before God. On Mount Gerizim, overlooking Shechem, Jesus talked to the Samaritan woman at the well about worshiping neither on Mount Gerizim nor in Jerusalem, but in spirit and in truth. Judea and Samaria is nearly a quarter of Israel’s current land mass, not a small strip of land on the Jordan River, but a vital and strategic part of the nation’s identity. The October 7th massacre, launched from Gaza, shattered the illusion that giving away territory brings peace. Gaza, which was once seen as the cornerstone of a two-state solution, became a launchpad for terror. Today, only 21% of Israelis support a Palestinian state. Trust in a two-state solution has all but collapsed. The Middle East is changing. Iran’s grip is weakening. New alliances are forming. But Western countries and some U.S. officials still chase the mirage of a two-state solution. History speaks clearly. The 2005 Gaza withdrawal, backed by the U.S., led not to peace, but to a terrorist regime. Judea and Samaria are 24 times larger than Gaza, deeply woven into Israel’s geographic and spiritual fabric. To surrender them would not bring peace. It would invite conflict and existential danger. Family Research Council stands with Israel’s rightful claim to sovereignty. It’s time for America to do the same for history, for justice, and for lasting security in the Middle East.
SPEAKER 05 :
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SPEAKER 16 :
So glad to have you joining us today on Washington Watch. Welcome back. I’m Jody Heiss filling in today for Tony. Before I get to my next guest, I want to point you in the direction of a new resource that will be great for you as we head into this Thanksgiving weekend. It’s FRC’s new resource called America’s First Thanksgiving, Where Faith Met Freedom. This is a beautifully, beautifully designed digital resource. It’s going to help you explore the faith-filled origins of Thanksgiving. You’ll learn how the pilgrims, the scripture, and God’s provision helped shape the first Thanksgiving and thereby helped to define this uniquely American holiday. And this resource is yours free. It’s absolutely free. Just visit stand.frc.org slash Thanksgiving, or you can just simply text the word Thanksgiving to 67742. That’s Thanksgiving to 67742. You are going to love that resource, especially this week. And speaking of Thanksgiving, as we look forward to tomorrow’s holiday, it’s a good time for us to look back at the beginning of Thanksgiving. What brought the pilgrims to America? What was the first Thanksgiving like? And interestingly, given all the attention that socialism has been getting recently, what happened when the pilgrims experimented with socialism? And what lessons can Americans learn today from the pilgrims? Well, here to walk us through the history of the American Thanksgiving holiday is Dr. Paul J. Lee, the executive director of the Plymouth Rock Foundation. Dr. J. Lee, welcome back to Washington Watch. It’s great to have you. Good to be with you here on the eve of this Thanksgiving. on the eve of this wonderful, wonderful holiday, and I’m so glad to have you with us to talk through some of this. So let’s start through some basic questions, like what led the pilgrims to leave their homes and set out for America in the first place? What was life like for them when they were in England, and what made it appealing for them to come to America?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, when William Bradford wrote his history of the pilgrim story, and he started that history about 10 years after they landed, he let them know that one of the first things that happened, we have to realize that around 1550, 1560, a revival had been breaking out in England, and it was dubbed the Revival of Hearth and Home. That meant that many families were beginning to walk with God. They were getting converted. And preachers were going home to home in every hamlet around England. And this is where, for instance, many of the pilgrim fathers they would be known to be called were around their hearth and learning, reading from the Bible with their parents. And it was a grassroots kind of revival. And of course, this is where the pilgrims began. And they began, they made it very clear that as soon as they began to get their ignorance and sins discovered unto them by the Spirit of God and get converted, the society, the civil society around them began to persecute them. And keep in mind that we had King James, who was a very well-taught theologian, but pagan at heart, loved his royalty. He believed in the divine right of kings, and because of that, he was the head of the church. And if you didn’t go along with exactly what they were saying, you were going to be in trouble. And therefore, they were yoking, as Bradford said, the preachers with licenses to make sure that the state was going to make sure that every preacher was not preaching anything that would go against what the state believed because every church was no longer separate from state authority. And so this was happening to the pilgrims. Then they ended up forming their own church without permission of the king. John Robinson, their pastor, said, listen, the Bible says where two or three are gathered, there Christ is. We’d rather have Christ here than just some ceremony. And that was it. I mean, King James then said he was going to harry them out of the land. So this was the kind of thing. And not only that, there was a law by 1585 that if a neighbor saw someone not attending the parish church and they were meeting in their homes, they were to turn them in. If they didn’t turn them in, they would get the same punishment that would come to the individuals worshiping outside the church. So you had that kind of pressure upon those people eventually called pilgrims. Of course, they were not initially called pilgrims.
SPEAKER 16 :
So when they finally got to America or to the New World America, what was life like for them when they finally arrived?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, they decided when they left, they said there’s got to be good reason. Of course, they went to Holland for 11, 12 years. and Amsterdam and Holland and had some freedom of religion there. And then when the wars were beginning to start with Spain by 1620, they said, listen, this was their goal. Lastly, and which was not least, they said, a great hope we had and an inward zeal to propagate and spread the gospel of the kingdom of Christ into the remote parts of the world. Yea, though we would be stepping stones unto others. for the performing of so great a work. So they knew that they were coming for a multi-generational vision. They knew they were coming not just for their own survival. And only 75 out of the 350 members of the Leiden congregation were sent out. And people forget the fact that New England, and in some sense America, is founded on a church plant. And here these individuals came, and they then came to the wilderness. And they came under a specific missionary charter. That missionary charter had been put together, and they were not to dominate. They were not to steal land. They were not to do those things. They were to serve the natives and bring the gospel and be a good example of Christian character. This was rare at the time period. The reputation of Christianity coming and dominating societies, whether it was the Jesuits or anyone else, was rampant. And the pilgrims wanted to come in a different spirit. And so when they did come, there were several key events that led to what we call the first Thanksgiving. It was the first Thanksgiving for the pilgrims, obviously not the first time anyone gave thanks for a harvest or the provisions of God. And the first key thing was the fact that they wanted to, in some way, make peace with the natives. And when that providentially took place in March of 1621, And they had this peace treaty with the Wampanoag and Massasoit. And Massasoit, and this was amazing because Massasoit, they had had a plague. Their warriors had been depleted. They were getting threats by other tribes in the area. And so it was a dangerous situation, even for the Wampanoag. But we believe, though it’s not written directly in history, that when they saw the pilgrims come with parents and children, wives and children, who never traveled at that time, they realized they were not coming to conquer. You don’t bring your wives and children if you’re going to just conquer the people and take them and steal it. Now, of course, there were all kinds of misunderstandings between the cultures. But that peace treaty in March of 1621, two weeks later, the Mayflower leaves. Now they are here to stay. Not one pilgrim returned, even though they lost half their number in that first winter. They were devastated. And yet they began then to pray and to work with the natives. And providentially, one of the young boys who ran away into the woods got picked up by the Nauset tribe. Now, the Nauset tribe had been robbed of 22 of their natives in 1614 by an Englishman by the name of Hunt. And because of that, they were angry at the white man. And they fired their arrows at the pilgrims the moment they saw them on the beach having their devotions when they were still exploring and trying to find a place to settle. So now they had a hostage of theirs. And they communicated with Massasoit because now peace had been declared. And Massasoit said, listen, they’re there. They know you. You took some corn. They know this. And the pilgrims had discussed, if we take anything to help with our survival, we’ve got to pay them back. Providentially, in about August of 1621, they met with the Nosset tribe. And literally, they had a reconciliation service. And they apologized for their race for mistreating the natives. and stealing those individuals. And then it was wrong. And after that, when they did that, the boy was returned totally well. They had similarly held him and they came to the plantation and they paid them to satisfy them for any corn they had taken. This is huge because without a peace treaty and without a reconciliation, there would have been no Thanksgiving. And think of how unique it is. Amazing. How unique it is in October. of 1621, it’s not the first time people gave thanks. But think of the ingredients. You have three-day feast. You have recreational athletics. We assume, and history says, probably wrestling matches, bow and arrow, musket contest, whatever it happens to be. but a three-day feast with 90 natives and only 45 to 50 pilgrims are left alive. Only four adult women are there. The natives brought most of the food. And this is an amazing miracle.
SPEAKER 16 :
Yeah, it really is a fascinating, fascinating history that we have here. Our time slipping away, though, I wanted to get this because I brought this up in the as we were leading into this. But there’s been some Americans that have pointed to the pilgrims as the first Americans to try out socialism. Break that down for us. How did that go for this pilgrim?
SPEAKER 10 :
Sure. Of course, the word socialism wasn’t in vogue. at the time, but what happened was that the financiers, in order for them to have this voyage, they had financiers, and some of them claimed to be Christians, and they felt that the Pilgrims were a good investment. They had lost a ton of money in trying to have plantations, whether it was Jamestown or any of the other ones, because they were not self-sustaining. And so they said, how could this be self-sustaining? Well, they said, look, they’re coming as families. They’re coming as a church in covenant with each other. This has got to be the best investment around. These people are not going to just leave their wives and children. So they invested in them. However, they wanted to insure themselves against a loss. Everybody wants to do that. But in this case, England had already devolved, we say, away from a free economy that they initially would have been spawned by Christianity. And they had what they called the common field concept, which means everything was held in common. so that the individuals who were investing, and this is what they did, they changed their contract secretly on the Pilgrims when they were starting their voyage, going to England, and they made them work six days a week for the common good, the common store. And then people were paid somewhat equally out of that common store. But what they found out is Bradford says, look, we’re starving here. After one year of trying this out, two years trying it out, by the time this happened, it was 1623. He said, look, they think that they’re going to try a system of economy as if they’re wiser than God, he wrote. No, we know this is not God’s kind of economy. People were, you know, women were saying, I don’t want to wash other husbands’ clothes. I don’t want to be able to go into the field. And even if some people are sick, believe it or not, they said that even the best, Bradford says, even the best people with the greatest character and a hunger for God in the wilderness, they would still feign to be sick knowing they were going to get food anyway. And it produced a laziness. It produced a where the incentive was not there to work. So Bradford made a decision with them without the permission of the financers that they would have to set corn and growing some small field. They still kept the common field, but they broke away and said, look, each family’s on their own. And if you don’t work, you’re not going to eat. Now, I didn’t say that, but that’s kind of the concept that was there. And this is the amazing fact. When they switched over in 1623, this is two years after that first harvest festival of Thanksgiving, which we, there’s a lot of theories about where that originated. But the idea is in 1623, we had this happen. They tripled their production in one year of acreage and food when they went to this kind of free economy. That’s a good lesson for people and Americans.
SPEAKER 16 :
It sure is. It sure is. All right, real quickly, we’ve only got a couple of minutes left here. Why did it take until President Lincoln’s administration for Thanksgiving to become a national holiday? And what lessons can we as modern Americans learn from the pilgrims and their first Thanksgiving?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, first of all, by the time Lincoln had done this, there were many, many Thanksgiving days. In fact, there were over 300 Thanksgiving days called in New England alone by the early 1800s. And most of the Thanksgivings were Thanksgiving, they had a prayer and fast day in the spring, and then a Thanksgiving service in the fall. Now, neither of those fit this first 1621 Thanksgiving, but the tradition of calling days of Thanksgiving was very prevalent. And it was particularly thanking God for the provisions he gave you and even the difficulties he gave. Thanking God for the trials he put you through because your character got refined as a result of it. Because the doctrine of thanksgiving preached by the pilgrims would be foreign to many Americans and even Christians because we don’t tend to be, we’re thankful when everything goes right, but we’re not gonna be thankful for when things go wrong. But this is what the doctrine they preached on this. And Thanksgiving was called every year of the American Revolution. Thanksgiving was called by George Washington when he became president. Many presidents. So this was not new. The part of being a national holiday was what made it new. And when Hale and all those individuals began writing the letters and whatnot to do that, that became a national holiday. And normally when it becomes a national something, it’s because it was practiced at the local level. It’s dangerous when you try to make something national when you’ve not been practicing it personally and locally. In this case, Lincoln’s was just the result of what had been practiced by churches and towns for decades and centuries.
SPEAKER 16 :
Just a little over a minute to go, what kind of lessons do we need to learn as modern Americans from those first pilgrims?
SPEAKER 10 :
I think one of the first things we need to learn is to thank God in the midst of whatever we’re going through. We tend to be very angry when things don’t go our way, when election doesn’t go our way, or some town ordinance goes in the wrong direction. But we need to thank God that through all of it, through the difficulty, through the difficulty of honing our perseverance and moving forward and learning to serve, And not thinking you can change a nation just politically. A nation has to be changed from the heart up. And asking God, help us, Lord, serve unconditionally regardless of the results. I think that’s the first lesson. I think a second lesson is we better be very thankful for the things that we do have and not constantly think about all the things that we don’t have. And those two things would be key lessons. And a third lesson would be, we have the story. People can go to our website, plimrock.org, P-L-Y-M-R-O-C-K.org. We have lots of resources on this. But the idea would be, be thankful and read the actual pilgrim story of Thanksgiving around the table and ask God to help us to be truly grateful.
SPEAKER 16 :
Thank you so much, Dr. Paul J. Lee. This is a fascinating story, and we appreciate so much you coming on. Hope you have a fantastic Thanksgiving, sir. Thank you for joining us. All right, friends, that wraps it up. Wishing to you and all of yours likewise a spirit-filled, wonderful, happy Thanksgiving.
SPEAKER 07 :
Washington Watch with Tony Perkins is brought to you by Family Research Council. To support our efforts to advance faith, family, and freedom, please text GIVE to 67742. That’s GIVE to 67742. Portions of the show discussing candidates are brought to you by Family Research Council Action. For more information, please visit TonyPerkins.com.
