Dive into a compelling conversation on the complexities of modern politics with Dinesh, the renowned host of The Dinesh Show. We explore the controversies surrounding young political influencers like Kai Schwimmer and discuss the challenges of cancel culture in an age dominated by social media. In this episode, Dinesh shares his insights on whether past mistakes should define one’s future, especially in the context of political appointments and the evolution of humor in our society.
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SPEAKER 04 :
I’m delighted to welcome back our favorite guest, Dinesh, host of The Dinesh Show.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hey, glad to be back on.
SPEAKER 04 :
Awesome. Well, I thought we could talk to you a little bit about, because you’ve had some really good shows coming out recently. You’ve done, which we talked about last week, your show on the Candace kind of feud we talked about. I think previously you did some shows with Mike Huckabee, which was really interesting. And then this week you had a new show come out that was maybe something you can explain. It was a little bit about the college Republicans leadership. What was going on there?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, the College Republicans, which is the largest youth organization in the country, has a new political director. And it’s this guy named Kai Schwimmer. Now, Kai is Mormon. He is a very savvy, well-spoken fellow and well-connected. But he also has a kind of a griper-ish past. He has photos with Nick Fuentes, and he had a couple of quite startlingly insulting comments about Jews using epithets. Similar to the N-word, but of course, in this case, applying to choose. But those were when he was younger. And so there was a kind of an outcry and people saying, well, this guy needs to be, you know, he needs to be shut down. Why would college Republicans appoint someone like this? And it raises for me a bunch of interesting issues. I mean, one is, yeah, some of the things that he says are pretty disturbing. But on the other hand, he didn’t say them now. He said them a while ago. And so that’s the first issue. Should people be, I don’t like to use the word canceled, because we’re not talking about them being banned. We’re talking about, should this guy be given an appointment? You know, people don’t have a right to have a particular appointment. So is it Does it make sense for college Republicans to have somebody with these views? But the point is, if you said those things when you were 17 or 16 and now you’re 24, should we have a sort of statute of limitations? Or at least someone gives an explanation for why they came to believe those things when they were young. And so to me, it’s not simply a matter of writing these guys off, because I think some of them are very talented. And so the idea of the conversation, and I think my show plays a good role here because on the one hand, I don’t want to dig in and take a view that… that the Groypers are flat out wrong on everything. I think that some of their concerns arise out of legitimate issues and issues that go beyond even their own group that reflect concerns of the younger generation. And we certainly don’t want to be writing off the younger generation. Somebody who’s from the Reagan years, I thought, you know, I’ll keep an open mind and have a conversation in which I press him and probe him on these topics, but with a view to seeing if there is some common ground and also to see what the direction is for MAGA and America First, even post-Trump.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. Yeah, we can talk more about that. I guess before we dive into that, what do you think about the fact that in this time, because of digital age, because of Twitter, all these things young people are on, it’s kind of like even when I was younger, there wasn’t really social media. I mean, when you were younger, there was even less digital things. And I’m sure people said all kinds of things to people in person, but none of this was really ever recorded or documented. To where later, if you’re ever trying to do something as an adult, it would come back to haunt you. And I’m not saying that means that people should, you know, say horrible things or that makes it okay. But there is some extent to which I think when people are younger, they’re going to, you know, explore different ideas. And they probably shouldn’t be under a microscope every second. And that’s, I think, something that’s almost weird about today’s generation, being a young person. Because you could do something when you’re under 18 and then later you’re never… you know, never have a job again. I mean, this is a different example that they talk about, you know, the people on OnlyFans, they’re acting, you know, like this online, well, that lives forever. And then, you know, they made that kind of mistake. And so I guess, what do you think about the fact that this is something young people have to contend with saying certain things, perhaps that comes back later?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I think this is a key point because the distinction between the private and the public sphere is very important in a liberal society. It even applies, by the way, to our laws. So, for example, if you’re hiring somebody for a job, you can’t discriminate, let’s say, on the basis of race. But let’s say you’re choosing someone to go on a date with. Well, that’s the private sphere. You absolutely are allowed to discriminate on the basis of race. You can decide on whatever basis you want to, and nobody gets to second guess your judgment. So applying that kind of general distinction In the old days, you could say something at home. You could say something in a bar with a group of friends or at dinner. Nobody would hold you account for that, except maybe your friend could be, I was very surprised you said that. That would be the end of the matter. If you’re now doing it in a chat group and somebody in that group decides, I’m going to leak this exchange to Politico, suddenly the private and public distinction is completely erased and you are now held accountable for what you said as if you put it in an op-ed or said it on Fox News. Now, that to me is unfair. And so this is precisely the kind of nuance I think we have to recognize. We can’t apply the old standard unthinkingly because in the old world there was a private protected space and now that has been to some degree diminished.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. And this might not, I might not be explaining this well, but because I’m not actually into this type of humor, but I know especially male humor is much more like making fun of different groups and saying things about people. And obviously a lot of very famous comedians do this about anybody, whether it’s, you know, this stereotype or that stereotype or age or gender or whatever. And so to a degree, it’s kind of like, I don’t know much about this person or what they said or anything, but also sometimes people just say things.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you have to remember, I grew up in an environment, this is India, and India is basically a society without political correctness. But in my high school, which was an all-boys school, and I’m just using this to illustrate the point you’re making. Yeah, people had, you know, nicknames that were like fatty, smelly. I mean, things like this. Now, it’s not that the guy who smelly smelled all the time, but probably at one point, somebody took note of the fact that he didn’t bathe or he came to school right after he played sports and he got the nickname and it stuck. So the point here being that this is in fact the way that and particularly, you know, think about Think about young people at a certain age. They’re extremely candid. They say exactly what they think. And they don’t have inhibitions. And this is particularly true of a bunch of boys when they’re among each other. They let their hair down, so to speak. And so all of this does need to be taken into account. They also think that stereotypes are funny. In fact, stereotypes are funny. And the only thing that happens in a society is certain types of stereotypes are put out of bounds and declared to be taboo, but other stereotypes are routinely used. And in fact, are a very common staple of of humor because humor relies on the generalization. Right. The generalization is something that we all observe, even if we don’t comment on. And what the comedian does is he brings it out and there’s that shock of recognition. And that’s part of where the humor, the humor comes from. So obviously, you’re talking about jokes made by 16 and 17 year olds. They may not be that funny. Or they may only be funny to those guys. Even them later looking back, they would be like, I can’t believe I thought that was funny. So yeah, I think we have to approach all of this in a generous and also a discriminating spirit. And that was my reason for wanting to have this conversation.
SPEAKER 02 :
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SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, and it’s interesting because with comedy, even a lot of comedians or old shows, I watched The Office and even Steve Carell, who’s the star of that, was like, I could never have made that today because of the political climate because it’s different. It’s almost like all humor is gone. You can’t make fun of anything. They would make fun of a lot of diversity and race and all that stuff. And he’s like, you can’t do that anymore. And now it seems like we live in a society that’s so focused on only, I guess the only humor on the left now is making fun of Trump or making fun of MAG or Republicans. But other than that, you can’t really even make any jokes. There’s no humor anymore. So I don’t even know where the direction comedy could go unless you can say things that are kind of outrageous and crazy. And sometimes, you know, that’s what leads to their reaction.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, there was a view going back to the Reagan years that there were certain groups that had had a rough time historically. And the idea was that they retained some emotional scars. And so making fun of them is not the same as making fun. So a good example, for example, would be whites and blacks. The idea was, well, look, blacks have actually had a very rough history in America. to make fun of a black person is not the same as a black guy making fun of a white person. So there was a kind of built-in double standard that was condoned because of this belief that certain groups are more vulnerable than other groups. In other words, you can make fun of powerful groups because they can take it, but you shouldn’t be making fun of sort of defeated groups because you’re just inflicting more pain that they already have a lot to endure. Now, That argument has become completely invalid because in many cases the roles have been reversed. For example, blacks have had 30 years or 40 years of legal privilege in our society. An easier time in getting into college, an easier time in getting into grad school, an easier time in getting government contracts, an easier time in getting jobs and promotions. So this institutionalized discrimination against whites has, at the very least, leveled the playing field, but in some ways almost reversed roles. And so, yes, I do think that the old rules of, oh, no, these people are out of bounds don’t really apply because they’re not truly vulnerable in the old sense.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. And something interesting, too, is in my mind, the only groups that would probably be genuinely off limits or something would be someone who has Down syndrome or someone who’s actually not… not able to maybe understand or, you know.
SPEAKER 03 :
Right, or children. Yeah, exactly. People who can’t fight back. But I mean, for example, take a group like gays. I mean, who would say that gays lack power in our society? They’re very powerful. In fact, they’re very clever. They’re perfectly capable of fighting back. They do fight back. So the idea that there should be like a taboo on gay humor, I say absolutely not. in fact i think they might be the ones who like it the most they love humor and love to make fun of everybody else right well gay culture is cultural critics yeah i mean the whole gay camp the whole gay aesthetic is all based upon scorn and smears and gossip and running people down uh you know i i don’t spend a lot of time like in hair salons and so on but but you probably do more than me and and that is a staple of uh you know let me tell you about this and hey have you did you check that out and you know you know she just looked absolutely atrocious in that outfit uh and uh so yeah this is something that is dished out uh by the gay community and so Again, you can’t just say, oh, well, you shouldn’t say that. That’s homophobic. All this notion of even all these phobias, I think, are bogus. People have come to realize, no, I’m not Islamophobic. You know, I just don’t like, you know, terrorists detonating bombs in front of Gracie Mansion in New York City.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, it seems like people are a lot more comfortable now with saying things the way it is, as opposed to being literally on edge, which I would say was the case even not that long ago, not even, you know, going back to the 80s, but even like five years ago, probably obviously even when Trump was. entering the scene 10 years ago it was still that was so taboo now it’s almost like of course we all accept the things that trump says and that’s not even controversial anymore controversial things are more undoing all of these kind of like political uh taboo topics
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, Trump has done a lot to open up the space of acceptable discourse. He certainly speaks in a language that no president has spoken before. In general, I think that’s a good thing. I mean, occasionally you might say, why did he say that? Or he shouldn’t have said that. But the general idea of… showing the kind of inner workings of the government, commenting in the candid way that Trump almost, you know, it’s almost like he’s a private citizen. And sometimes when you listen to his posts, it seems like he’s not the president. He’s just Trump commenting on the way things, and you have to sort of remind yourself that this is in fact the president talking about And that dual effect is itself kind of amusing and entertaining. So I find this to be a very entertaining phase of the presidency. I’m a little worried that we won’t have this again. So we may as well enjoy it while it’s here.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s so true. Trump is just one in a million and his comedy is hilarious. I love how every offhanded comment he ever makes to reporters or anything that comes up is really just humorous in and of itself. And it almost doesn’t even circulate because there are so many that there’s so many things he’s always saying that are so funny. What do you think is one of the most funny things Trump has ever said that he said to you or that you’ve heard?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I like his post where he said, this is actually one of the oldies from Trump. It was from before the presidency. And he says something like, you know, when I was 20 years old, I was Donald Trump. He goes, when Barack Obama was 20 years old, he was very Soweto. And then he just goes, weird. What he’s tapping into is the peculiarity of Obama’s past. But he does it in such a straightforward, disarming way that the effect of it is pretty electric. The other thing about Trump is that he has certain tropes that always elicit humor. And one of them is his own gargantuan ego. Because there are people who are massively egotistical. D.C., as you know, is full of these people. But they’ve learned… through education and etiquette to camouflage it and so they actually present themselves oh i’m so humble i’m so humble and so on whereas trump uh who is who is absolutely unabashed about his so for example if maria corina machado says you know take my nobel prize the customary response is oh, no, that’s very nice of you to think of it and so on. But Trump is like, well, yeah, maybe. I mean, yeah, of course I should take it because I deserve it. And, you know, I think I really appreciate the fact that you recognize the prize really belongs to me and not to you. I mean, you know, people are like, who says that? And there is a certain group, even on the Republican side, That is a little appalled by this kind of conduct because it is so out of keeping with what you would consider a kind of good graces. The reason that I laugh at it and I don’t have that view is I think that the whole idea of good graces or appropriate behavior. has been discredited by the people who set up those standards. And therefore, we’re not going to play their game anymore because, unfortunately, you have disgraced those standards. It’s like saying, you know, we’re not taking a lot of advice from the CDC and the NIH because you, the CDC and the NIH, have been lying to us for four years about this. COVID. So you have disgraced yourself. And it’s not that we don’t care about epidemics. It’s not that we distrust science. It’s not that we distrust medicine. It’s that we distrust you. Right.
SPEAKER 02 :
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SPEAKER 04 :
And it’s interesting because I do feel like in so many ways, even though, yes, that’s true about Trump, he’s so funny, but he’s also so genuine and warm. It’s almost like endearing because it’s like, oh, you know, he really does think these things. And he’s just himself. He’s just really just being himself. And sometimes I think people get so tired of the fakery, the pretend, the… oh, I’ll act like I’m so humbled by this, but I’m really not, and all of that. And Trump is just so different. What do you think we will see from Trump over the next couple years that will really kind of solidify his legacy in our history?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, one comment about Trump and this issue of ego, which I mentioned a moment ago, Trump is impersonal. very, as you said, warm, but he’s also very curious about other people, and he takes a genuine interest in them. He wants them to do better, and he cares about how they do better. I remember just an offhand comment. You remember Diamond and Silk? And Diamond sadly passed away. But remember, it was Diamond or Silk who was saying to me that when they met Trump and they were talking about the fact that they were making these videos about him and they were getting all these views, it wasn’t that Trump was like, yeah, I’m the greatest. I’m glad you’re celebrating my achievements. Trump was like, well, guys, listen, you need to figure out a way to monetize those videos. In other words, you need to figure out a way to make a business out of it so that you can do better by the content you’re creating. So this is not the hallmark psychology of a narcissist because narcissists normally, they’re the sun, the moon, and the stars. And maybe Trump thinks a little bit that way, but Trump is also intrigued about, you know, how’s your son doing? I hear he took an exam. How did that turn out for him? Is he looking for a job? Maybe he should think about this. So as I say, there’s a level of personal consideration that he shows people that in a way is out of sync with his public, you know, like braggadocio and his public bombast.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, Trump is definitely, there are so many examples too of Trump being so incredibly caring and thoughtful and thinking of other people. And even with him pardoning Cuellar, it’s like he just probably did that because he just felt bad and probably, you know, just has such a big heart. So I think in many ways he is like that and he’s not just about the the narcissism that the left says because that’s actually not true. And what’s crazy is maybe Obama is more of that example because he is a raging narcissist. But then at the same time, he likes to act like he’s very restrained and he’s very calculated about everything. What do you make of Michelle and Obama’s current relationship?
SPEAKER 03 :
It’s hard to know because I think that… with some of these characters, the Obamas, the Clintons would be the same. their marriage is probably radically different from the way that they portray it. And so Barack and Michelle often will do these affectionate photos, happy birthday to the person who is the sun and the moon. And so they have this kind of, it’s on the face of it insincere. And usually when people do that, it is to camouflage something, right? And I even saw an old joke, this is from one of, I may have been from the New Yorker or something, where I was talking about the fact that, you know, if you’re 28 years old, you’re 24 years old, and you’re on a date and you’re holding hands, you know, that’s normal and that’s cute and that’s cool. But if you’re 53 and you’re holding hands, it’s like, what’s going on? It’s not that 53-year-olds don’t hold hands, it’s that if you’re making a show of it, it’s usually because you’re trying to camouflage something that you don’t want people to know. And I think with the Obamas and the Clintons, these are very strange people. With Barack and Michelle, for example, both of them cannot help revealing that they are just massively egotistical. They’re both megalomaniacs. Now, usually when you have one megalomaniac and a devotee, that kind of works. But two megalomaniacs is not a good combination. And so I suspect that with Barack and Michelle, they actually live pretty separate lives. Probably because they can’t really stand each other. And each one of them thinks that the other is a monster. And I frankly think both of them are correct. You know, I agree with both in their assessment of the other. And probably something similar is going on with the Clintons where they It’s kind of like one of those old European marriages of not convenience, but rather a tactical alliance. And I think that the Clinton marriage can be understood in that way.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. What do you make of the fact with Michelle? Because one thing that I find strange about her is when she was first lady, I know a lot of people say, you know, she looks like a man and all this. But when she was first lady, she did dress and just act a bit more palatable, I think, to Americans. Because you can’t just come out of nowhere and elect someone as acting like a total, you know, rapper or something. Yeah. And so then she’s kind of acting, you know, a little bit more, I mean, liberal, but right. She’d like wear dresses and normal clothes. And then now it’s kind of like she goes for the full braids on the head. She’ll wear like a lot more strange outfits, like very eclectic or very like fashion forward, high designer type clothes. She’s much more like think she’s an icon almost or think she’s like a pop star as opposed to, someone who was first lady. And I guess I’m just wondering, what do you make of that or her evolution, I guess?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, she herself has talked a little bit about it, and she apparently says that she felt like a prisoner in the White House. She hasn’t used that exact phrase, but what she’s getting at is when I was in the White House, I was like the first lady. I was the partner to the president, and so I had to play a role. So she’s implying that that was… kind of costume that she put on for those eight years. And now, presumably, she gets to be more herself. And now we saw glimpses of this Michelle even then. You know, she’d be at a ceremony when she’d see the flag and she’d whisper to Barack, all this for a flag. So that’s the kind of thing. But of course, there she was caught on a mic saying that she meant to only say it to Barack. And you get an idea here that he is in agreement with that sentiment because she wasn’t saying it as if she was saying something controversial. She expected him to go, yeah, you’re right. So that’s how both of them felt about the situation.
SPEAKER 02 :
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SPEAKER 04 :
Do you think they both have always wanted to be like Beyonce and Jay-Z or something? Because it seems like they think of themselves as more like Hollywood icons, that kind of thing. They don’t actually really think of themselves as much as servants of the country or people who are more patriotic or people who are in the president mode. It’s almost weird to think that he was president.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I think that this is why Barack and Michelle are different. Because I think she would be, she’s basically, you know, kind of an elderly version of Meghan Markle, Michelle. And has all the qualities that Meghan Markle shows. She’s, in other words, there is a certain, there’s something about them that is, even though they’re outwardly quite presentable, there’s something like repellent about them. And it’s because of their character. They can’t help revealing it. But I think the main difference is that Barack is a kind of revolutionary in a way that Michelle is not. Barack likes power. If you told Barack, listen, you can have a successful career, let’s just say as a rapper or as an actor, he wouldn’t want to do it. Because I think that he now he likes the idea of making a big Netflix deal and collecting $20 million for doing nothing. So he’s likes the idea of being a bit of a globetrotter now. But I think that I think that not only did he use power quite ruthlessly in his two terms. But there’s good reason to believe he had a third term with Biden. And so I think this guy would be happy to have had a fourth term if he could get it with Kamala Harris. But Trump thwarted that plan.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, no, definitely. And it seems like they probably are still wrapping their heads around the fact that Trump was president and then made such an amazing comeback. They probably thought that they had stopped him the first time, but he made this incredible comeback. And I guess last question is, do you think that Michelle and Barack are going to stay on the political scene forever? Moving forward, do you think Michelle is going to keep up these interviews? Because she’s been doing a lot of these podcast interviews where she talks about how, you know, women giving birth isn’t really the most important thing. And, you know, don’t do all these things for your kids because they’ll just grow up and not care about you anymore. Do you think she’s just going to keep on going in that direction of just total kind of feminist negativity, elderly anger, and Barack’s just going to keep trying to influence politics? Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, recently, Barack has been posting about his library. So he’s probably thinking of making that the podium for the next phase of his life. Now, I don’t know if you’ve seen photos of the library. It looks like a large version of a dumpster. No, seriously.
SPEAKER 04 :
Why am I not surprised?
SPEAKER 03 :
It’s modern art. Yeah. It is like taking a dumpster and making it five stories tall. And in fact, you know how dumpsters often have graffiti on it? His library has graffiti on it, except it’s part of the architecture. I think it’s beautiful, beautiful in the sense that it is almost like a reflection of Barack’s soul. It’s very appropriate. I mean, it’s absolutely, it’s almost like taking his inner self, which he has hidden from the public for the eight years of his presidency, and it all comes out unintentionally in this architectural monstrosity. Now, With regard to Michelle, yeah, it’s almost like she’s going for a sort of Oprah-style identity, where she becomes a kind of combination of self-affirmation and life guru. And she gives advice that nobody really wants. I’m sure no one really follows. And when you present this advice in a kind of self-expression mode, You’re almost saying, this is my life path. This is how I’m trying to find self-realization. I recognize that this is, in fact, a trope in our culture. I find it immensely boring for the simple reason that You know, if ultimately each one of us is finding our own unique life path, then why would I care about yours? I would only care about mine. Now, the only reason for me to be interested in yours is if we as human beings have a common good or if there are goals that we all strive toward or we all have a soul and we’re all pursuing justice or virtue. So when the ancient Greeks talked about these things, they assumed that human beings have a common nature. And if we have a common nature, it means that we’re going to pursue the good in somewhat the same way. This is not to say that there aren’t multiple goods. And we sometimes have to choose one over the other. But Michelle almost acts as if she is a, you know, think of like a painter doing their own modern art. They think of their life as their own painting. Well, if you’re throwing paint at your canvas, why would I want to watch you? I mean, I can throw paint on my canvas in the same way. And so it’s inherently, I think, you lose interest right away in this enterprise. And I think it’s odd that Michelle doesn’t seem to know that. She seems to think that because she’s Michelle Obama, we all want to watch her throwing paint at the wall. And the reason that her podcast is a total flop. I mean, you can actually think of it. She’s Michelle Obama, you would guess in the abstract that if she’s doing a podcast, like 1 million people would be listening. Oh, no, it’s more like 47. Wow.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, thank you for joining us today with these thoughts. We’ll have to talk more about the Obamas next time because there’s so much, so much there. So thanks for joining us. Make sure to check out The Dinesh Show if you haven’t watched his recent episode. Make sure to like and subscribe and watch. So you can see the latest.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hey, I should also mention I’m now on Substack. This is new because it takes me back to my old journalism days. And so check it out. It’s just Dinesh D’Souza dot Substack dot com. You can actually subscribe for free and check out. A lot of times I take my monologues on the new show and I convert them into articles. So Substack is a great place to read stuff from Dinesh.
SPEAKER 04 :
Okay. Dinesh on Substack. Awesome. See you next time.
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