In this insightful episode of Washington Watch, Tony Perkins dives into the escalating tensions in the Middle East with freelance war correspondent Chuck Holton reporting directly from Israel. They explore Israel’s difficult balancing act amidst Syrian conflict, the controversial choice made by the US Special Envoy for Syria, and how geopolitical actions could influence future interventions. Listen as former U.N. Ambassador John Bolton shares expertise on Iran’s nuclear aspirations and the international response, including a close examination of how the US stands on domestic and international sovereignty issues.
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from the heart of our nation’s capital in Washington, D.C., bringing compelling interviews, insightful analysis, taking you beyond the headlines and soundbites into conversations with our nation’s leaders and newsmakers, all from a biblical worldview. Washington Watch with Tony Perkins starts now.
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What happened in the last few days is so complicated. Israel’s intervention in the midst of this creates another very confusing chapter. But the answer is we have to stop the senseless killing.
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That was U.S. Special Envoy for Syria Thomas Barak commenting on the escalating situation in Syria. Welcome to this July 21st edition of Washington Watch. I’m your host, Tony Perkins. Thanks so much for tuning in. Well, coming up on today’s program, freelance war correspondent Chuck Holton joins us live from Israel with the latest, not only on the conflict with Syria, but new tensions between Israel and the United States.
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Nations who accept the new regulations are signing over their power in health emergencies to an unelected international organization that could order lockdowns, travel restrictions, or any other measures it sees fit. In fact, it doesn’t even need to declare an emergency. Potential public health risks are enough for it to initiate action.
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That was Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert F. Kennedy discussing why the United States rejected amendments proposed by the World Health Organization. We’ll unpack what that means and what comes next. Also, newly obtained documents show the Biden administration was actively searching for ways to criminally charge parents who showed up at public school board meetings during COVID. Congressman Tim Wahlberg, chairman of the House Education Committee, joins us to weigh in.
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the ayatollahs still want nuclear weapons. And the question is whether they can bluff us out of surveillance over their nuclear sites to make sure that they can’t rebuild from the damage that’s been done to them. This regime has never modified its radical theology that came into power back in 1979.
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That was former U.N. Ambassador John Bolton, who joined me over the weekend for my weekend program. I’m going to share a portion of that conversation we had with you about Iran. And finally, pastors across Louisiana are rallying in defense of Pastor Luke Ash, who was fired by the East Baton Rouge Parish Library for refusing to use so-called preferred pronouns. One of the pastors leading the effort, Pastor Louis Rickerson, joins me to explain why many pastors see this as a cultural red line. All of that and more ahead on this edition of Washington Watch. On Saturday, the Syrian government announced that it had reached a ceasefire agreement with the Druze and Bedouin groups whose deadly clashes in the southern province of Suwaida last week drew Israeli intervention. Calm was reported in Suwaida yesterday after fighting continued Saturday despite that ceasefire announcement. Now, some of the Trump administration have expressed frustration with Israel’s intervention. Joining me now to discuss this is freelance war correspondent Chuck Holton, who has been tracking the situation there in the Middle East. And he joins us live from Israel. Chuck, welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, Tony. So, Chuck, first, give us bring us up to speed on what unfolded over the weekend.
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So more information is coming out of Sueda as we speak. Just hour by hour, we’re getting more videos and death tolls. It’s now over 2,000 people who were murdered in that killing spree of the Druze and some Christians. As a matter of fact, there was a pastor who had converted from the Druze faith to Christianity and then started an evangelical church in Sueda, and the Druze had no problem with that. They don’t mind. But he and his entire family, his parents, his wife, his children, his brothers and sisters and their children were all murdered in the church, more than 20 people all in just one go. And so obviously this is more than just a problem for this small ethno-religious sect that nobody’s heard of until the day before yesterday. But go ahead.
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Well, give us what’s behind this. What caused this latest outbreak of violence there?
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A lot of people that I’ve been talking to say they believe it was planned and they used a clash, kind of a small local thing that happened between some Bedouin and some Druze to sort of kick the thing off. But then you watched it just grow very quickly as the THE SYRIAN TRIBAL COUNCIL, WHICH IS A NATIONWIDE ORGANIZATION, CALLED FOR A GENERAL MOBILIZATION TO SUPPORT THE BEDOUIN, WHICH ARE ISIS-AFFILIATED, AGAINST THE DRUZE. AND SO YOU SAW THOUSANDS OF FIGHTERS GETTING ON TRUCKS AND expunge the Druze from that whole region. And that’s exactly what they said they planned to do. And incidentally, some of those that were captured later said that they also had planned to attack Israel after they finished with the Druze.
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So, Chuck, what’s the connection then with the new Syrian interim government? Any connection there?
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Well, it is, yes. The Syrian interim government is doing its best to put a progressive forward face on the new regime. But Ahmed al-Sharah, everybody knows, was actually arrested and spent six years in prison. by the United States in Iraq for being al-Qaeda. And as everybody, I was just up in Majd al-Sham, which is an Israeli Druze village in the north of Israel, and everybody up there says, look, you can put a suit on a terrorist and he’s still a terrorist. And what I’m hearing, I was just in Syria not long ago, and what I’m hearing from the people who are in areas that are under regime control is that the face that he’s giving to the Western world does not fit with the actions on the ground in the areas that he’s over. So they are instituting Sharia law. Women have to sit in the back of the bus. They’re segregating people. And there is a lot of extrajudicial killing. Now, some of that might have to do with the fact that there are a couple of hundred militias who are all sort of just loosely related. And in fact, al-Sharad doesn’t have that much control over any of them. And so the United States is trying to get them to just give this a chance. And that’s one of the reasons why they expressed frustration with Israel. But is the Israeli ruse? We’re talking one hundred and fifty thousand or so that live in Israel. are telling the Israeli government, look, we vote. And if you don’t go help our brothers in Syria, we are going to do it. And several times now, they have broken through the fence into Syria and rushed in, I mean, like over 1,000 of them to try to help their brothers over in Syria. So Israel is finding itself, like, pressured from both sides. It’s just a little ironic that the United Nations is saying that Israel needs to protect Syria’s national sovereignty. When Syria is a failed state, they don’t control all of their land at all. And there’s a literal attempted genocide going on of the Druze. And Israel is the only country that’s going to their aid. And they’re not just doing it militarily. They’re flying supplies and humanitarian aid in to Sueda as well. So they’re the only ones that are helping.
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So this is not the first outbreak we’ve seen under the new interim government. Shortly after they took over, we saw the Alawites being targeted. So there is a I would from my perspective and Chuck, you know better. You’re there on the ground, but it looks like there’s a pattern.
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Well, and again, everybody that’s in there, that’s living under their control, says what you’re looking at is ISIS 2.0. They tried to declare a caliphate and create a new country, and that didn’t go well for them. They had a lot of pushback from even Muslim countries on that. Now what they’re trying to do is take over Syria and just declare themselves to be the new government. Everybody’s referring to Ahmed al-Sharra as the new president of Syria. But nobody voted for him. He’s just self-declared and has no intention of holding elections anytime soon.
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Well, as you made reference to, there has been some in the Trump administration complaining about the aggressiveness of Israel, and Benjamin Netanyahu in particular, as it pertains to Syria bombing near the presidential palace and military command centers. But I want to, and part of it is they said, well, this is to help him domestically from a political standpoint. And you made reference to the fact there’s 150,000 Druze there in Israel and they vote. Just for a comparison purposes, it’s not much different than Christians here in the United States advocating for our government to go to the aid of Christians elsewhere who are being targeted and persecuted.
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That’s correct. And the difference is the Americans in the United States that would like that to happen are not saying if you don’t, we will do it. And hundreds of thousands of us will go and fight in another country. So that would complicate things for sure. But again, look, I don’t think that there’s a real downside for Israel in this. Even though it’s causing a little friction with the United States and it certainly is getting the world up in arms against Israel, but that’s nothing new. It strategically makes sense. It weakens the al-Sharah government. Israel, you bet, you’ve got to understand that Israel’s Mossad has intelligence on al-Sharah that we’re not all privy to. So the strikes that they’re making to sort of take them down a notch can only help Israel in the long run. It also creates the opening for Israel to get a lot more intelligence gathering capability inside the country while everything is chaotic.
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Yeah, and I don’t want to go down this path, but it also, I think, keeps Turkey at bay since they seem to have a pretty strong connection with the new president there. Speaking of tensions, we just have about two and a half minutes left, Chuck Holten. But the tension between the United States and Israel, I mean, last week or week before last, I was at a reception with the prime minister when he was here in the United States. I mean, it couldn’t have been stronger. This has opened the door to some criticism. We saw and you’ve been tracking this story. Ambassador Mike Huckabee going to a Palestinian village. But you’ve talked about how there was some fake news there that may have drawn U.S. Well, maybe maybe they just didn’t understand completely what was happening. Talk about that situation.
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That’s right. This is the village of Taipei. It’s one of the oldest Christian villages and one of the only Christian villages in the Judea and Samaria area. And there was a story that came out and there was some grainy video that showed Israeli citizens who live legally in Samaria who were running around in the cemetery in front of the church and inside the church. and it showed some smoke and flames kind of down below the church and it made the they they made the claim that jewish illegal settlers had come in and burned the church and the cemetery uh this this ancient church well we just sent one of our people out there today to that church and he talked to the bishop that runs that church the church is not destroyed there was no fire in the church there was no fire in the cemetery the videos that you saw of the settlers running around was them trying to put out a fire that had been started by a palestinian uh on the land that belonged to an israeli farmer out there so he was burning uh farmers crops and the Wind blew it out of control, and it was blowing it up toward the church, and these guys were putting it out. So, of course, as soon as the word came out, and a lot of it’s been pushed by the bishop of this church. He told our guy today that he’s Palestinian first and Christian second. So, apparently, he hasn’t been reading his Bible a whole lot, but… THAT TELLS YOU PRETTY MUCH WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE MOTIVATION BEHIND WHY HE WOULD PUT OUT A STORY THAT IS OBVIOUSLY FALSE BECAUSE ANYBODY THAT WANTS TO CAN GO SEE THAT CHURCH NOW AND IT’S NOT BURNED AND ALL OF THAT. SO THIS IS ONE THING THAT WE’VE SEEN OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THIS INFORMATION WAR THAT IS BEING WAGED AGAINST ISRAEL, AND IT’S NEVER GOING TO STOP, BUT I THINK THAT As Christians, we need to think critically about that and push back against that.
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And be very discerning. Be very discerning. Fake news knows no boundaries. Chuck Holton, always great to see you. Thanks so much for joining us and stay safe. Folks, don’t go away. We’re back with more after this.
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The family is the oldest, most tested, and most reliable unit of society. It is divinely created and sustained. And yet, there are those who are always tampering with its values and structure. That’s why we need organizations like the Family Research Council that can effectively defend and strengthen the family.
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Family Research Council began over 40 years ago, like all great movements of God, with prayer. Today, rooted in the heart of the nation’s capital, FRC continues to champion faith, family, and freedom in public policy and the culture from a biblical worldview.
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It’s just a wonderful parachurch organization that doesn’t seek to take the place of the church, but it seeks to assist the family and the church as we try to move forward successfully, not in a defensive mode, but in an offensive mode as we seek to live our lives according to the Holy Scriptures.
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Download the new Stand Firm app for Apple and Android phones today. You can join a wonderful community of fellow believers. We’ve created a special place for you to access news from a biblical perspective. Read and listen to daily devotionals, pray for current events, and more. Share the Stand Firm app with your friends, family, and church members. And of course, Stand Firm wherever you go.
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Looking for a trusted source of news that shares your Christian values? Turn to The Washington Stand, your ultimate destination for informed, faith-centered reporting. Our dedicated team goes beyond the headlines, delivering stories that matter most to believers. From breaking events to cultural insights, we provide clear, compassionate coverage through a biblical lens. Discover news you can trust at The Washington Stand, where faith and facts meet every day.
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Welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks for joining us on this Monday. If you’ve not yet downloaded the Stand Firm app, I encourage you to do so. Go to the App Store, get the Stand Firm app. That way you can watch Washington Watch no matter where you’re at. You can get our news and commentary from a biblical perspective, the Washington Stand. On a regular basis, it’s updating constantly throughout the day as we’re writing more stories. And you can start the day with our devotional, Stand on the Word. All of that is found on the Stand Firm app. Additionally, there are action items so that you know when to engage. Remember, our republic was not made for spectators. It was made for participants. So get the Stand Firm app. Well, speaking of action, if you’ve tuned into this program over the past two or three years, you’ll recall the alarms that we frequently raised over the efforts by the World Health Organization, a U.N. entity, trying to give itself more power and authority post-COVID. You’ll recall how we also highlighted WHO’s incompetent and corrupt handling of the pandemic. Well, last week, we raised the alarm again as the deadline approach for countries to reject the WHO’s latest attempt. And thankfully, Thankfully, the Trump administration took action. Here to discuss this, Congressman Tim Wohlberg. He is the chair of the House Education and Workforce Committee. He represents the 5th Congressional District of Michigan. Chairman Wohlberg, welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks for joining us.
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Tony, it’s good to be back with you. And thanks for highlighting the challenges and the dangers we have in our country and our world today.
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Well, what a difference an election makes. Instead of having an administration working behind the scenes to surrender sovereignty, we now have an administration working to protect national sovereignty and saying no to the World Health Organization.
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What a unique thought that we would not be a globalist country, but rather stand firmly on the fact that American ought to be leading the world and doing it independently, respecting our sovereignty, our founding principles, our people and our freedoms. And we don’t do that by joining with any other entity and letting them chart the course.
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I mean, as the chairman of the House Education Committee, you know so well the devastating effect that bad policies have had on our children and hardworking Americans. I mean, and that’s just a kind of a micro of the macro. When you look at the United Nations and the World Health Organization, why would anyone? Want to put that type of power into the hands of an unaccountable, unelected international organization that could literally take our freedoms away at the next declared international health crisis.
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Well, absolutely. And I think it comes, Tony, you know, sitting here dealing every day of my life with the education issues. realizing that the U.S. Department of Education, which thankfully our president wants to abolish, and the Secretary of Education wants the same thing, and I want the same thing, and we know that Congress is the only one that can do that, but we can do some significant reforms, downplaying, right-sizing, depowering in the process, but our citizens for too long have been, especially since 1980 when the Department of Education was formed and put in place, we’ve been taught a different thing about our country. We’ve been taught that there are bad things about our country, that we’ve never learned from our mistakes, and that the world needs to help us along the way. And so WHO, World Health Organization, is one of those. And yet we saw during COVID the WHO, which was inextricably tied to China, serve us well, in fact, put us in worse state. And I think our nation suffered as a result of that. And certainly we weren’t taken care of medically and health-wise during that process as well. And you would think we would learn. But there are still people who have been brainwashed to think that someone else has to watch out for America doing the wrong things for its people. Right. As to the people themselves.
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I mean, the closer government gets to the people, the better it is. The further removed it is, the less accountable and the more dangerous it becomes. One final question on the WHO topic, Congressman, is. I know this puts an end to it for now, but do you think they’ll stop? I mean I’ve never seen the United Nations take no for an answer.
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No, they won’t until we stop the funding, until we separate ourselves from them in a very solid fashion. And I think also potentially putting legislation in place that would require any change in that to their ownership. Why? It must not happen unless Congress says so clearly. So I think those are things we ought to consider.
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Chairman, I want to I want to go down a lane here that’s clearly down the education front. This coming out end of last week, you know, we we knew something was wrong. We could smell a rat. Looking back in the Biden administration, when the attorney general, Merrick Garland, went after parents who showed up at school board meetings to raise issues about COVID policies, to raise issues about bathroom policies. Now, new evidence as a result of America First Legal going after documentation, finding that they were looking for a hook This is the DOJ, the Attorney General, looking for a federal hook to criminally charge these parents who were showing up at these public hearings. This is outrageous.
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outrageous, and it makes me even more grateful that Mitch McConnell had the insight and the ability to stop Merrick Garland from ever getting on the U.S. Supreme Court, at least for now. But they just will not accept the fact that this is not what America wants. I think 77 million people said that at the last election. But I’ve often said, ad nauseum to some of my colleagues on the Education Committee, that the three things we need to get right will make our education system work and our workforce work. If we get it right for the student, the parent and the teacher, we will succeed. The parent has to be there to central focus. The parents are the ones that brought these children into the world. The parents are the ones that give the opportunity for schools to be in place and have a purpose. And if we make sure that they’re center focus, then teachers, I think, will have not only an understanding where they sit in supplementing the parents’ education responsibility, but also coming under that authority. So to think that they would ever be considered as domestic terrorists, but just because they stand up to speak for the best impact on their kids’ lives is ridiculous, it’s horrific, and it’s anti-American. So we need to push back on that and make sure that this doesn’t happen to out Merrick Garland and his ilk from moving that direction along with the radical teachers union leadership.
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That’s such a well-balanced statement where you want to put the child, the parent, and the teacher. And instead of making policy to reach the lowest common denominator, we understand the role of the parent and we challenge them to fill that role. Chairman, we’re out of time. Always great to see you. Thanks so much for joining us today. Folks, stick with us. We’re back with more after this.
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for Bible-believing Christians to know what God’s Word says on these issues and to learn how they can apply it to their lives. And we believe that the more Christians that we equip, that’s how we’ll change the nation.
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Visit frc.org slash worldview for more information.
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Welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks so much for tuning in. Just one final note on that previous story about Merrick Garland and the Department of Justice. The actual full-time or career service members of the Department of Justice pushed back, showing how radical Merrick Garland and the Biden political appointees were. Right. Over the weekend, I had a conversation with the former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton. He joined me for this week on Capitol Hill. We discussed what’s been unfolding in the Middle East. Among the topics we discussed was Iran, the end of August deadline that was agreed upon by the U.S., France, Germany and the U.K. And I wanted to share a part of that conversation with you right now. Here’s how that conversation started. Let’s talk Iran. According to recent reports, Iran has been given the end of August as a deadline to agree to a nuclear deal with the United States and our allies. However, Iranian officials have conditioned, they have preconditions that they’ve set for these nuclear talks with the U.S. based upon no future military attacks by the U.S. First, are they in a position to make such a demand? And second, what should be the response of the Trump administration?
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Well, they’re really not in a position to demand much of anything. Thanks to Israel, their air defenses are essentially completely flattened. They’ve obviously suffered significant damage to both the nuclear program and their ballistic missile program. And I think they’ve shown their real sentiments in the past week or 10 days by effectively making it impossible for international inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency to stay in Iran. The regime said, we can’t guarantee your safety. And the IAEA took the hint and said they were going to withdraw their personnel. I think what this reflects is that the Ayatollahs still want nuclear weapons. And the question is whether they can bluff us out of surveillance over their nuclear sites to make sure that they can’t rebuild from the damage that’s been done to them. This regime has never modified its radical theology that came into power back in 1979. It’s still run by that same ideology, which is why it’s a threat to the U.S., to Israel, to Arab governments in the region.
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So what is the U.S. threatening if the Iranian regime fails to pursue or fails to engage in these talks and cease their pursuit of a nuclear weapon?
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Well because the 2015 Iran nuclear deal is now coming to an end it was basically a 10 year deal in most significant respects. There’s a provision in there that allows the U.N. Security Council to reimpose international sanctions that the 2015 deal lifted. Now of course the U.S. twice now in Trump administration’s has reimposed those sanctions but the Europeans have not. So this is a threat really from the Europeans that if the Iranians don’t get serious they will reimpose sanctions, which I think would be an entirely good thing, because that would show even more pressure, more unity among Western nations against Iran’s effort to get nuclear weapons. But I don’t think it will dissuade the Iranians. I think the benefit to the United States is to finally bring the Europeans over to a stronger position against this very threatening regime in Tehran.
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So Ambassador Bolton, that brings in kind of another component of this conversation. The U.S. bombing of Iran’s nuclear facilities was a clear display of U.S. military strength and power. While not as immediate in its effect, the use of economic tradecraft, sanctions and tariffs are being used quite extensively by the Trump administration. Is that by design and is the impact of that as strong as military action?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well it’s not as strong as it could be. Economic sanctions and tariffs and a variety of other things the U.S. could do are a form of warfare economic warfare not kinetic warfare. But I have to say our record of enforcing sanctions across many administrations for decades now has not been as effective as it could be. I think if we were to have stricter enforcement, the sanctions would bite harder and would therefore be more effective. And the whole point of using economic measures first is to try and avoid having to go to military action. So stronger sanctions, better enforced, I think are very much in America’s interest. And we ought to be looking at how to how to use the sanctions more effectively than we have.
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So could this be, you know, kind of tying our domestic issues that we oftentimes think are just domestic. For instance, the president having this dispute with the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Chairman Powell. Is the U.S. interest rates and the policy pursued by the Fed, does that affect the president’s ability to use this economic tradecraft when it comes to foreign policy?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, it certainly can. Let’s take the tariffs as an example. I think most economists would say there’s going to be a negative economic effect on the U.S. because of the tariffs. And ironically, I think the White House understands that, which is why they’ve been putting pressure on the Federal Reserve to reduce interest rates, to offset a negative effect on the economy by lowering the rates to promote more opportunities for economic growth. And And that’s a view that’s shared by economists who think that the Fed ought to act early to prevent a larger negative impact that might occur as these tariffs finally take hold in the second half of this year. Tariffs are really just as much an international as they are a domestic issue, as your question really tries to probe on this interest rate issue.
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30 seconds left. Ambassador, is there a cohesive policy being pursued by the Trump administration on this front?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I wish it were more cohesive. The world is a complicated place. A lot happens at the same time. And you have to try and maximize your effectiveness really across the board. We’ve not with sanctions, for example, on Russia in the case of Ukraine. Maybe that’s about to change. I certainly hope so.
SPEAKER 12 :
All right. Ambassador John Bolton, always great to see you. Thanks so much for joining us today.
SPEAKER 09 :
Thanks again for having me.
SPEAKER 12 :
All right, don’t go anywhere. After the break, I’ll share the latest on the situation with bivocational pastor Luke Ash, who was fired from the East Baton Rouge Parish Library for refusing to use so-called preferred pronouns. We’ll talk with one of the pastors who’s leading the effort in his defense. So don’t go away.
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Family Research Council is committed to advancing faith, family, and freedom from the East Coast to the West. So FRC is going to Southern California for this year’s Pray, Vote, Stand Summit, October 17th and 18th at Calvary Chapel, Chino Hills. Join us for this powerful gathering of Christians desiring cultural renewal and spiritual revival. The Pray, Vote, Stand Summit brings together Christian leaders, issue experts, and government officials for a time of prayer, inspiration, and action. Together, we will seek God’s guidance for our nation and engage in meaningful discussions on the intersection of faith, government, and culture. If the spiritual foundations and the cultural walls of our nation are to be rebuilt, we all have a role to play. May we each find our place on the wall as we build for biblical truth. Register now at PrayVoteStand.org. That’s PrayVoteStand.org.
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And we brought all of that experience to the table. We want to see people walking in the fullness of who God has called them to be and not a false identity.
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How should Christians think about the thorny issues shaping our culture? How should Christians address deceitful ideas like transgenderism, critical theory, or assisted suicide? How can Christians navigate raising children in a broken culture, the war on gender roles, or rebuilding our once great nation? Outstanding is a podcast from The Washington Stand dedicated to these critical conversations. Outstanding seeks to tear down what our corrupt culture lifts up with an aim to take every thought and every idea captive to the obedience of Christ. Whether policies or partisan politics, whether conflict in America or conflict abroad, join us and our guests as we examine the headlines through the lens of Scripture and explore how Christians can faithfully exalt Christ in all of life. Follow Outstanding on your favorite podcast app and look for new episodes each week.
SPEAKER 12 :
Welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks so much for joining us today. You can check out the website, tonyperkins.com. Better yet, get the Stand Firm app. As I mentioned earlier, it is your resource. It has our daily devotional, Stand on the Word. It has news and commentary from a biblical perspective, the Washington Stand, and of course, it has Washington Watch and other resources. Well, our word for today comes from Luke chapter 22. Now the feast of unleavened bread drew near, which is called Passover. And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill him, for they feared the people. Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. So he went his way, conferred with the chief priests and captains how he might betray him to them. And they were glad and agreed to give him money. judas didn’t suddenly fall into satan’s grip his betrayal was the tragic culmination of earlier choices he had long been compromising pilfering from the disciples money bag indulging in sin while keeping up appearances that willful sin dulled his conscience and opened the door for satan to take control eventually his heart grew so hardened that he could betray the son of god with a kiss This is why James warns us, therefore submit to God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you. The downward spiral of sin always begins with small, unchecked steps. Resist early, repent quickly, and submit fully. For more on our journey through the Bible, text BIBLE to 67742. All right, last week I had on this program Pastor Luke Ash, a bivocational pastor who was fired from his job at the East Baton Rouge Parish Library for refusing to use preferred pronouns. Now, his story had not received any attention until we invited him to come on the program, but now it’s gotten a lot of attention. His story has caught the attention of the press, Governor Jeff Landry in Louisiana, and the head of the U.S. Justice Department Civil Rights Division, Harmeet Dhillon. Well, last Thursday, a group of pastors took the case of Pastor Ash to the East Baton Rouge Parish Library Board. And here with me in studio to share the response they received is the pastor who led the charge, Dr. Lewis Rickerson. He is the lead pastor of Woodlawn Baptist Church in St. George, Louisiana, which is a community inside of East Baton Rouge Parish. Pastor Lewis, welcome to Washington Watch. Thank you, Tony. Glad to be here. So let’s first start. You became aware of this. You authored, drafted a letter that several dozen pastors have signed on to. Let me just start with this. Why did you get involved in this? What prompted you to say, hey, wait a minute, something’s not right here?
SPEAKER 03 :
Two things, brother. One, one of the pastors that serves with Luke at his church is a young man that grew up in my church and discipled in the life of our church. And he sent me a message and said this was taking place and asked me just to be praying for Pastor Luke. I reached out to Pastor Luke and said, brother, praying for you, anything we can do to help you, please let us know. We’re here to stand with you. And then that was Tuesday and Wednesday. And then, of course, Thursday, the firing. And I said, brother, you know, we’re here with you. We’re going to stand with you. I’ll do whatever I can. I just started making contacts regularly. through various people that I know to say, hey, this is taking place. Secondly, brother, I think it’s the heart of who we are as Baptists. Baptists from the very beginning have always had a passion. At the end of the day, it was John Leland, a Virginia Baptist, who helped shape the First Amendment to the Constitution. So in some ways, it’s just in my blood. It’s who we are as Baptists.
SPEAKER 12 :
Were you surprised? I mean, this is Baton Rouge. It’s not a liberal city. I mean, it’s not, you know, every big city has its issues. But I would certainly say it’s a right of center community that in this library that someone was a pastor, a bivocational pastor, fired for not using preferred pronouns.
SPEAKER 03 :
Absolutely, totally shocked. When he first reached out to us, told us that he was going to be meeting on Wednesday with his boss, I quite honestly, of course, prayed for him, but just assumed that, okay, he will go into that meeting and they’re going to push back against him a little bit. He’ll push back against them. It’ll be resolved. It’ll be resolved. You just be nice. Luke, just make sure you’re being kind and gracious and no problem. It’ll be resolved.
SPEAKER 12 :
You know, I had Pastor Luke on the program. We had him at a pastor’s breakfast we had last Thursday, which prompted other pastors to sign the letter that you drafted. Luke is not one of these guys that’s in your face. I mean, he’s very meek and mild. He’s the kind of guy that would not push the issue. But I truly believe it comes out of a place of conviction.
SPEAKER 03 :
Absolutely. Tony, he’s got to be one of the most kind, gracious, humble men you will ever meet. Just talk to him for five seconds and you quickly figure out his disposition is that.
SPEAKER 12 :
Is this a cultural red line?
SPEAKER 03 :
Absolutely. I think it’s a cultural red line, and I want to say that we in East Baton Rouge Parish and the Christian community in East Baton Rouge Parish bear the primary responsibility in pushing back against this initiative. I think it’s a wonderful opportunity for us as the church to speak to it and to speak to it in a way that is kind and gracious yet firm. Jesus teaches us, right, be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. We can take convictional stands and do so kindly and graciously.
SPEAKER 12 :
And folks, you can weigh in on this as well. We’ve got a petition that you can sign that will be delivered to the executive director of the library board. Her name is Katrina Stokes. And just text the word pastor. That’s pastor to 67742. That’s pastor to 67742. And I’ll send you a link and you can add your name to this petition that will be delivered. We were told back when this whole effort, and I never believed it, but I’m able to say what we were told, we were told that this redefinition of marriage was a live and let live. We just want to be able to, you know, marry the one we love. I mean, that was the phrase that they actually used. And this was not going to harm you. I remember in debates, many debates, they don’t do too many debates on these things anymore because the left doesn’t want to debate because their lives have been exposed. And this is one of them, that live and let live, that our same-sex marriage is not going to affect you when, in fact, we have seen how it’s led to a redefinition of gender, women’s sports issues, public restrooms and changing rooms. pronoun usage to where Christians now are being targeted and fired for not playing along with their make-believe.
SPEAKER 03 :
Tony, I completely agree with you. This goes back to 2015 and the Obergefell decision, but in some ways I think it even goes back further than that. When the church back in the 50s and 60s gave way to no-fault divorce, in my mind it really begins there. And we continue to capitulate on the conversation with marriage. They redefine marriage. And we both know that that was never the sole intention. It’s much larger. Because if you can eradicate a concept of male and female, then you really eradicate a creation principle. Genesis says God made them in the beginning. The image of God is stamped upon this maleness and this femaleness. So…
SPEAKER 12 :
the further we move away from the revealed truth of God, which is also revealed in nature, the further we move away from that, the more complicated life is going to become and the more really pitfalls as a society. So what we have now is we have this, I’m just gonna put myself into the position of the library now, that they have to accommodate competing positions. One of religious freedom, that someone does not acknowledge this because it’s contrary to their religion and they’re not going to be forced to use false words. But they want to accommodate someone who believes they’re a different gender. And so if you believe all things, you have this chaos and this confusion, and there is no resolution unless you return to the truth.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, the resolution for them, I think, is the eradication of Christians from the public sphere. So that’s ultimately what they’re going for.
SPEAKER 12 :
Which is what happened here in the case of Luke. So the teaching moment here is to let Christians understand. We’re not coming from a place of anger, a place of anxiety. Be anxious for nothing but prayer and supplication. With thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. But a full understanding of what the end will lead to if Christians are silent and withdraw from the public space.
SPEAKER 03 :
Absolutely, and another opportunity to clearly articulate the truths of God’s Word. And one of the things I appreciate about Pastor Luke from the very beginning was that was his heart. He was really unsure about some of these political conversations, but in his text messages to me and in his verbal conversations with me, he was always bringing it back to the gospel. We have an opportunity to make Christ known and make much of Christ and to glorify God, and I appreciate that.
SPEAKER 12 :
So the church is not looking for a cultural fight, but… But it is. I mean, how else would you describe it other than it has come to us? I mean, here you have a bivocational pastor who he told me he used when he lived in Indiana, driving a truck, used to listen to this program as he was driving the truck, got a church here as a bivocational, wanted to to to really do a career at the library. He saw this as a career and he he loved the opportunity to to mix with unbelievers and to be able to share the gospel. But when you’re forced to play along with a lie, then it becomes problematic.
SPEAKER 03 :
And remember what he said, I can’t lie. You can’t lie. He said, I can’t lie. And not only that, I think it also strikes at the heart of who Luke is, an opportunity to serve. He’s a servant. He’s serving a church at the library. What are you doing? You’re serving people who walk in. And I think that’s the heart of who he is.
SPEAKER 12 :
So, Pastor Lewis, let’s talk about, you know, there are many. In fact, after Luke was on, I got some emails, people saying, well, you know what? You know, Jesus, you know, he had the woman at the well and he talked to her. And so, you know, what’s the big deal? I said, well, first off, that’s a great example. The woman at the well, Jesus didn’t back away from the truth. He said, go get your husband. She goes, I don’t have one. And he said, I know, you’ve had five, and the one you’re living with now is not your husband. He didn’t encourage her to continue that. No, but he didn’t ignore it. Right. And the result, by confronting it in a loving way, conversationally, led to her being convicted and converted. Absolutely. And so speaking the truth is important. Now, the demeanor in which we speak, as Paul says, speak the truth in love. We’re to build one another up. We’re to reach the others, the lost, with the truth. How would you instruct Christians in this day and age to navigate this increasingly difficult environment? Are they to be silent? Are they to go into caves? I mean, are we to retreat? What are we to do?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, first, Tony, I think we’ve got to operate with a conviction of the truthfulness of God’s word. Be firm in your conviction that it’s the word of God, right? Paul wrote the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Let me just stop you right there.
SPEAKER 12 :
That is so important, but that… requires we know the word of God.
SPEAKER 03 :
And I agree with that.
SPEAKER 12 :
And that’s a problem we have in many of our churches is that we are not teaching the word of God.
SPEAKER 03 :
I completely agree with you, brother.
SPEAKER 12 :
Precept by precept.
SPEAKER 03 :
Absolutely.
SPEAKER 12 :
Line upon line.
SPEAKER 03 :
Absolutely. That’s what we need. So you’ve got to start with a conviction of the truthfulness of God’s word and understand that that is our soul. and only authority for speaking into these situations.
SPEAKER 12 :
It’s not our opinion. And that’s the other thing we’ve got to get away from is that we’re not defending our opinion. We’re expressing the truth of God’s word. What the God of creation has said.
SPEAKER 03 :
So that should give us confidence, shouldn’t it? Absolutely. That gives us confidence. And then flowing from that, I think then we’re compelled to speak the truth of God’s word. Paul, he makes his way to Rome. He’s going to stand before King Agrippa. And Paul’s source of authority for what he’s going to say is the word of God. And we’ve got to have confidence in that and then be willing to step out and clearly articulate that in a kind, gracious, yet firm way. And that was part of my desire at the library the other day.
SPEAKER 12 :
I want to ask you about that because they wouldn’t let you talk. It was on the budget. There was a public comment meeting section on the budget. I thought you brought up a very valid point that where we put our money shows our priorities. And so you tried to tie this to the budget. They tried to shut you down. You continue to express your concern. Did they ever offer an opportunity to have a conversation with you about this?
SPEAKER 03 :
Absolutely not. We emailed the library as I said in my statement. We’ve heard absolutely nothing from them other than the response that they gave us Thursday at the board meeting. But I went into that conversation with the conviction I was gonna finish my statement, and regardless of how they responded, I would not respond in like manner. And I drew that inspiration and that encouragement from the text of scripture to do exactly those things. State the truth of God’s word, and do so kindly, and then not be intimidated by the left. I think sometimes as Christians we can be too intimidated.
SPEAKER 12 :
I’ll be very candid. I mean, most of us don’t like conflict. That’s true. I mean, people don’t believe this, but I don’t like conflict.
SPEAKER 04 :
Right.
SPEAKER 12 :
Who does? I think that’s why the Lord brought me into the political realm is because I really don’t like conflict. When I was a police officer, I was able to de-escalate almost any situation because I didn’t like the conflict. But what compels me Pastor Lewis, is that I have a greater conviction of the truth than I have a desire to avoid conflict. And I think that’s where we have to be as the church. Folks, let me again give you that petition. Text the word pastor to 67742, pastor to 67742. And let me ask you to share this with your friends. I really want a message to go to the East Baton Rouge Parish Library. And not only to them, this is a national issue. And if it hasn’t cropped up in your community, it will. And so you need to weigh in and make this an issue now. Pastor Lewis, you just have a little less than a minute left. Is this issue going to go away?
SPEAKER 03 :
It’s not going to go away for me until… The two things we demanded are met, reinstate Pastor Ash and change your policy. And I will not be quiet and I will not leave my church to be quiet or this community to be quiet until those two demands are met.
SPEAKER 12 :
And I don’t think those are unreasonable. No, they’re not. I mean, it’s the DEI policies that clearly show that they’re not for diversity, equity and inclusion when they fire someone who doesn’t want to play along with their games. And I think the country’s a lot wiser to this. This is a teachable moment, and I’m grateful for your stepping forward and helping to lead. All right, folks, I do want to encourage you to weigh in on this. As I said, it’s not going to stay isolated to one community. This is this DEI policy that’s hidden in policy manuals all across the country. Text PASTOR to 67742. All right. Thanks so much for joining us. Until next time, I leave you with the encouraging words the Apostle Paul found in Ephesians 6, where he says, when you’ve done everything you can do and you’ve prayed, prepared and taken your stand, by all means, keep standing.
SPEAKER 04 :
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