Frank Gaffney joins Jody Heiss to reveal an unsettling push by the World Health Organization for unprecedented global governance. With amendments to international health regulations looming, Gaffney warns about the potential erosion of U.S. sovereignty. Together, they discuss what’s at stake if nations submit to these controversial health directives. Later, Dr. George Barna brings a fascinating lens on America’s faith trends with his latest research. Barna exposes startling statistics showing that Rhode Island and Nebraska are among the states with the fewest adults holding a biblical worldview—a timely discussion on the cultural shifts affecting American identity. This episode combines
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from the heart of our nation’s capital in Washington, D.C., bringing compelling interviews, insightful analysis, taking you beyond the headlines and soundbites into conversations with our nation’s leaders and newsmakers, all from a biblical worldview. Sitting in for Tony is today’s host, Jody Heiss.
SPEAKER 07 :
Good afternoon and welcome to this Thursday edition of Washington Watch. I am Jody Heiss, Senior Fellow here at the Family Research Council and very much honored to be filling in today for Tony. We’ve got a lot to bring your way today, including these following headlines. In the wee hours of this morning, the Senate has now passed President Trump’s first rescissions package. That is a package that will be clawing back some $9 billion of wasteful spending that the American taxpayers have been put out on. And it would be going to programs that would be doing advancement of the leftist propaganda instead of American priorities.
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Last night, for the first time since 1993, 1993, we’re now 2025. First time in all of that time, the Senate came and stripped out the spending by passing a bill on the United States Senate floor last night to finally say enough is enough of this kind of reckless Washington spending.
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That was Senate Majority Whip John Barrasso earlier today, and now that package is in the House of Representatives, which plans to vote on it before the Friday deadline. So what is the latest on all of that? Well, Texas Congressman Keith Self, who’s a member of the House Freedom Caucus, among other things, he will be joining me here in just a couple of moments to give us an update on that rescissions package. And in New York City, well, you probably have heard of it now, the self-proclaimed Democratic Socialist who is a candidate to be the next mayor, Zoran Mamdani, he’s working to charm the broader Democratic coalition. In fact, he was in Washington, D.C. yesterday with members of Congress, including Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. But a lot of people are extremely concerned about Mamdani for multiple reasons, but much of the concerns even are coming from Democrats. Well, we’ll unpack some of those issues later when I’m joined by author and columnist Larry Taunton. And speaking of concerns, there are many now who are sounding the alarm on the current effort of the World Health Organization to acquire more and more power for itself despite the disastrous response they had to COVID-19. Probably one of the greatest leaders in the effort to bring awareness to people is Frank Gaffney. He’s the president of the Institute for the American Future, and he will be joining me later in the program to talk about what’s going on and what needs to be done about it. And then to close out the program today, I’ll be joined by Dr. George Barna to discuss a fascinating report that he has on how states rank when it comes to a biblical worldview. So do you want to know where your state stacks up? Well, stick around for that conversation, which we’ll have a little bit later in the program. So we’ve got a lot coming your way, as we always do. You don’t want to miss any of it. But if by chance you do, you can always catch it by going to our website, TonyPerkins.com. All right, let’s jump into the program for today. As I mentioned a while ago, something very, very special happened on Capitol Hill earlier today. It’s something that has literally not happened in over three decades. The Senate approved a rescission packet to claw back some $9 billion in federal funding. This would impact a host of things such as NPR, PBS, several foreign aid programs, and so forth. But the vote was extremely close. In fact, there were two Republicans, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski, who voted with the Democrats against the bill. But nonetheless, it passed by 51 to 48, and it’s now in the House. So what’s next? with this bill. Joining me now to discuss this and much more is Congressman Keith Self. He’s a member of the House Freedom Caucus and a mover and shaker right on the tip of the spear on so many issues. He represents the third congressional district of Texas. Congressman Self, it’s always an honor and a pleasure to welcome you back to Washington Watch. Good to see you.
SPEAKER 08 :
Great to see you, Jody. Thank you.
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All right, so I’m in this rescissions package. It’s exciting news. It’s making it over a bunch of hurdles. Give us the latest on where this stands.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, right now, apparently the rules committee in the House is going to meet at 6 p.m., and they will develop the rule. There will be some debate, and we’ll vote on the rescissions package either tonight or tomorrow, sometime to be determined. That’s the latest. That’s all I can tell you.
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All right, so that’s the latest on the process of the bill. What are your thoughts on the version of the bill that the Senate voted on and that they have now sent over to each of you there in the House?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, you earlier said in the wee hours of the morning, I will tell you, they made a wee cut. nine billion dollars which is one tenth of one percent of the budget uh uh to to take out fraud waste and abuse this is nothing uh it it’s worse than a drop in the bucket this is nothing this is a test case jody this is a test case to see if the senate and the house can make any cuts because President Trump ran on getting rid of fraud, waste, and abuse. That’s what the rescission packages do. And believe you me, it’s not the last rescission package we will see from the Trump administration. This one expires, though, tomorrow night at midnight. So the House has got to take up the Senate version, pass it. Yes, we’ll pass it, even though they cut a little bit out of it. But this is a precedent-setting bill that the Senate can, yes, cut some money.
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I’m really glad you brought that up, Congressman Self, because yeah, number one, it is a drop in the bucket when it comes to trying to cut back wasteful spending and so forth. But nonetheless, it is a drop and it is a step in the right direction. But the Senate really struggled over this, and yet you say, and I’m hearing as well, we’re hearing that there will be additional rescission packages coming. Do you think that those future packages can pass the Senate again? I don’t have any doubt that you can pass it in the House, but do you think future rescission packages can make it through the Senate?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, I don’t know, but I think every package that the administration sends over will have a fight on its hand to get through the Senate. There’s no doubt about it. The Senate does one thing better than anyone else in the nation, and that’s spend money. Wow.
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Well, we’re going to be keeping a close watch on this, of course. This is, as you said, a precedent-setting bill that’s here. It’s been a long, long time since we’ve seen anything like this, and I’m excited that it did make it past the Senate, and we’ll keep a close watch on where it goes from here. If I can switch gears with you a little bit, I’ve been in touch with some other members of the Freedom Caucus, which, of course, you are a a leader there. And I understand that there’s been, can I say, a deal reached, an agreement to advance President Trump’s cryptocurrency agenda. A lot of folks don’t understand cryptocurrency. I’ve got a lot of questions about it myself. But tell us overall, if you can, a little bit about that.
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Well, there were three bills. There was one bill to establish a framework. That’s very important. There was one bill to unlock banks and the wealthy to be able to buy digital assets. And there was one bill, in my mind, the most important bill, was to ban a central bank digital currency. We do not want the federal government being able to use a central bank digital currency. That would give the federal government total transparency of your bank account and your spending. Look, we’ve got facial recognition already. We’ve got license plate readers. So this would have finished it off with the financial transparency to the federal government and, frankly, the power to say no. You want to buy a big Texas pickup? No, you can’t do that. You want to buy a weapon of some sort? No, you can’t do that. You want to buy potentially a Bible? Maybe not. If the federal government was run by people who believed in the government having say so over your financial future.
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So where is this going, this whole cryptocurrency thing? It’s a digital currency. And thank you, by the way, you and the members of the Freedom Caucus for standing against this central bank overseeing and having the ability to provide surveillance over that digital currency. But is this going to take over the dollar? Is there a threat of that? Are we moving towards a digital currency situation? across the board, or is this another type of currency that American people would be able to utilize?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, right now it’s another type of currency, and there are several different types. We don’t have time to go into all of them, but my colleague Warren Davidson is very concerned that one of the issues needs to be not only surveillance, but that you maintain self-custody of your assets. In other words, you get to move them around without going through a third party. You don’t have to have a third party, again, that has transparency into your transactions. You control your assets even though they’re digital assets.
SPEAKER 07 :
It’s going to be very interesting. And I know I’ve spoken with Warren Davidson as well about this, and you’re right. He is a master on all of this and has been involved in the conversations from early on. But this whole cryptocurrency thing is gaining momentum. And it’s going to be something that we’re going to have to deal with at some point. So again, thanks to you and your colleagues in the Freedom Caucus for doing everything you can to at least make sure that privacy is maintained with those who utilize a cryptocurrency. Speaking of the Freedom Caucus, Congressman Self, let me ask you this. And I know better, but I’ve heard it, and it’s being widespread through the legacy media. Among people who are saying the Freedom Caucus has caved when it comes to various demands, whenever there is something that conflicts with President Trump, that the Freedom Caucus caves and just does what President Trump wants. How do you respond to that kind of allegation?
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, the old saying is the devil is in the details. And we look at the details of some issues, the one big, beautiful bill two weeks ago, this week, the cryptocurrency. We are doing everything we can to push our conference to the right. to maintain personal responsibility, freedom, freedom of speech, freedoms across the board, in this case, privacy of your finances. We are taking the lead and making sure that everything that we pass adheres as much as possible to the concept of freedom, free speech, personal responsibility. So while people say we fold, we move everything here as far as we can toward the freedom end of the spectrum. And at the end of the day, when we have done everything we can do, we say we have done everything we can do and we agree to move the very important issue forward. We’re not folding. We’re moving it as far as we can.
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Yeah, and you’re doing a masterful job at it. Of course, I was a part of the Freedom Caucus as well, in fact, an original member of the Freedom Caucus. And I tell you, they’re just warriors, absolute warriors in the Freedom Caucus. And I have watched and, of course, been in many conversations with various members and seeing how – effective HFC has been in moving the needle of the entire conference further to the right has just been remarkable. And this is a group that really is being a voice for millions of Americans who believe they’ve lost their voice in Washington. So thank you so much. Congressman Keith Self.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yes. Jody, you know better than anyone, because you’re a founding member, you know that the mission of the Freedom Caucus is to move the conference as far as we can toward freedom, end of the spectrum. You know better than anyone, our mission is not to take anything down. It’s to move it to the right. Move it to the right.
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Congressman Keith Self, House Freedom Caucus, Texas, thank you so much. Great job. Keep it up. Thank you. All right, friends, coming up next, we’re going to look at a troubling rise coming out of New York City’s mayoral candidate. Boy, you don’t want to miss what’s coming up. We’ll cover it right after the break. Stay tuned.
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The family is the oldest, most tested, and most reliable unit of society. It is divinely created and sustained. And yet, there are those who are always tampering with its values and structure. That’s why we need organizations like the Family Research Council that can effectively defend and strengthen the family.
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Family Research Council began over 40 years ago, like all great movements of God, with prayer. Today, rooted in the heart of the nation’s capital, FRC continues to champion faith, family, and freedom in public policy and the culture from a biblical worldview.
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FRC is one of those bright lights that helps us focus on true north. And I shudder to think, had they not been here, that it could have been worse, worse, worse.
SPEAKER 06 :
The Family Research Council is key. It’s one of a handful of groups that I think will determine whether our children live in a country that enjoyed all of the freedom and all the opportunity that we enjoyed in this great land.
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It’s just a wonderful parachurch organization that doesn’t seek to take the place of the church, but it seeks to assist the family and the church as we try to move forward successfully, not in a defensive mode, but in an offensive mode as we seek to live our lives according to the Holy Scriptures.
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FRC is not going to be whooped. You know, we’re going to fight. We’re going to take a stand.
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And again, we don’t retreat. You will never see in front of this building here in Washington, D.C., a white flag fly. We will never step back. We will never surrender. And we will never be silent.
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Hello, friends, this is Tony Perkins. You know what? We just finished our 21 day family Bible challenge to the book of Matthew. And if you joined us, I pray that it has already borne fruit in your life and in your home as you place the Lord and his word at the center of your home. Now, our journey through the Bible doesn’t end here, though. The challenge was a part of our stand on the word Bible reading plan. And from here, we’re going to cover the rest of the New Testament. And now that we finished the book of Matthew, let me ask you, would you consider joining us for the rest of the journey through the word of God? In 10 to 15 minutes a day, you’ll see how the good news of Jesus transformed the lives of common people, people just like you and me, and how those same people transformed the known world through the power of the Holy Spirit. I invite you to continue the journey with me and discover the life-enriching power of the Word of God. Visit frc.org slash Bible for a reading plan. That’s frc.org slash Bible to learn more.
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Welcome back to a Washington Watch. Good afternoon. I’m Jody Heiss. An honor to be filling in today for Tony. All right. The Democratic nominee for New York City mayor, Zoran Mamdani, he is what do we know about him? He’s a 33 year old self-proclaimed Democratic socialist. And I think it’s fair to say he certainly has become the darling of the left after he beat former Governor Andrew Cuomo in the primary last month. But Assemblyman from New York, Mamdani, he was actually in D.C. yesterday. He was meeting with Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and other Democrats. They met at the National Democratic Club. He’s trying to build his coalition so that he can— obviously, he wants to be in the Gracie Mansion there in New York next year. But certainly— He is an individual who has a lot of questions floating all around him, probably not the least of which, for some of us watching and listening right now, is what is a democratic socialist? And what do we know about Mamdani’s background? Well, here with his thoughts is author and freelance columnist Larry Taunton. Larry, welcome back to Washington Watch. Always an honor to have you.
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It’s always good to be with you.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, so for those who may not be tracking the mayor race in New York City or New York City’s politics in general, catch us up a little bit on who is Zoran Mamdani, what’s his background, and what are his views as a self-proclaimed Democrat Socialist?
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Well, what I’m going to say here is perhaps controversial, and I’m just giving you my own opinion here. But I think he’s disguising who he really is. Mamdani gives the impression – that he is a socialist, actually a communist, a hardcore communist, though they deny that that’s actually what he is. But, you know, it’s really my argument that he is first and foremost a Muslim. I mean, we do have him recorded, you know, speaking of how it’s his desire to bring more Muslims, you know, into the country. And you see the larger plan for Islam is that they have discovered that the path to power in America is through socialism. They look at London, Britain itself as a whole is really the model. You have Saqib Khan’s London there. He’s a sort of a soft socialist is the way that he packages himself, but they’ve actually, they’re waging war on white people in particular, on the Christian faith. in particular, free speech while opening the floodgates to Muslims coming into that country. And the result of that is nothing short of frightening. I was a student in London in the early 90s. And the way that country is now is it’s been totally transformed by Islam, and that’s the model here. And so I think that Muslims have realized that their path here isn’t to come as open Muslims who desire to create a caliphate, but rather to come as socialists.
SPEAKER 07 :
That’s a great comparison and something I think that provides a wake-up call for everyone. What do we know about his father, Mahmoud Mamdani? And specifically what I’m thinking about is his anti-Israel views.
SPEAKER 14 :
Well, I don’t think we know honestly an awful lot about any of them. But what we do know is that he’s a guy who has made a case for suicide bombing, that he sees it as a legitimate form of warfare. And that, again, takes me back to Islam because, you see, this is – this is actually quite consistent with what Islam is. It’s quite consistent with the Quran. And you see, Muslims, something that Americans just simply do not understand, and having spent so much time in the Middle East, as I have, and reporting on Islam, debating Muslims on Al Jazeera. I’ve debated them in Hyde Park, London, which is where the real radicals hang out. I’ve debated them on CNN International, Islam holds that it’s morally acceptable to lie if it advances the cause of Allah, if it advances the cause of Islam. And this is why I argue that he’s not a socialist. He knows that the way to win, particularly in New York and with millennials and Gen Zers, is through socialism and so no they’re not open about what their plan is here and of course his desire to create all of this uh you know free housing and so forth i i would be willing um to um to bet a substantial amount i know i i know this isn’t what we do here but that his plan is to fill that housing with Muslim immigrants. That is the goal. I mean, this is a guy who’s also stated that it’s his desire to increase taxes on white people. So while he’s saying that, we’re watching what’s happening in Minneapolis, where we have a political candidate there who has stated very much the same thing. So you see, this is very much consistent with say someone like Ilhan Omar. I’ve always argued Ilhan Omar is not first and foremost a socialist. She is a fifth columnist. She is trying to advance Islam.
SPEAKER 07 :
Absolutely. So what do you take of his win in this primary? What does it say about the Democratic Party?
SPEAKER 14 :
Well, the Democrat party of, you know, my father was a lifelong Democrat. He died in 2006 and probably fairly typical of many Democrats. My father was, you know, what was once called a Reagan Democrat. The last Democrat president he voted for was Jimmy Carter, and he lived to regret that. Meaning that this is not a Democrat party that his generation would recognize at all. He loved his country, wasn’t for open borders. I mean, that Democrat Party is dead. This is a radicalized Democrat Party that is seeking the annihilation. You know, I used to say that it was the annihilation of borders and to flip red states into blue states. That’s all part of it. But their ultimate goal is the destruction of American exceptionalism. American exceptionalism is real. And it was Obama who first kind of stated this. And they know that the keystone that sits above the doorway of freedom around the world is the United States. And they know that the key to that, what undergirds it, is, of course, the Christian faith.
SPEAKER 07 :
Right. Amazing. I wish we had more time. I look forward to have you on, Larry, some more to talk about this further. But thank you, Larry Taunton, author and freelance columnist. Great insight. We appreciate it very much. Appreciate you coming on. All right, friends, COVID-19, the pandemic may be over, but the World Health Organization, they’re still going full force. And we’ve got some info you need to hear right after the break.
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The Center for Biblical Worldview’s all-day workshops delves into the formation of a worldview, what it is, how it’s formed, when it’s formed, what that means to them personally and their churches and communities.
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My hope for people when they come to these worldview workshops is that they will come away better equipped to engage the people and the ideas that they’re living with and around. And our goal is to give people more confidence in the gospel, in the fact that what God said to us actually is true, actually is the path to happiness and human flourishing for all of us, but also more confidence in their ability to have these conversations and help lead other people to the truth.
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for Bible-believing Christians to know what God’s Word says on these issues and to learn how they can apply it to their lives. And we believe that the more Christians that we equip, that’s how we’ll change the nation.
SPEAKER 01 :
Hey, fam, listen, Pastor Sammy here at Lighthouse Church, and I cannot tell you how equipping, how empowering, how… incredibly educating this conference has been. And so I just want to encourage anybody that either has not been part of or is thinking about hosting this event, certainly to pastors, leaders, even CEOs for that matter. This conference is lights out. Stand behind it myself. I can’t commend it enough. We’re going to be talking about this for some time to come.
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The culture is kind of squeezing in on us as God’s people, forcing those of us with biblical views to change those views or to suppress those views. It’s forcing us to engage with issues that we’ve never had to engage with. And so what this teaches us is what those issues are, what the Bible says about those issues, and then how we can critically engage our culture on these things in a way that is committed to biblical principle.
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Visit frc.org slash worldview for more information.
SPEAKER 07 :
Good afternoon. Welcome back to Washington Watch. An honor to have you joining us today. I’m Jody Heiss, and pleased to be filling in for Tony. All right, the COVID-19 pandemic. We look at it now from the rearview mirror, but that does not mean that the World Health Organization has forgotten the unprecedented impact amount of power that nations willingly handed these so-called experts. And we all watched in shock as they did some of the things they did. Well, this coming Saturday, they’re going to attempt to recover some of that unprecedented power. July 19th is a deadline for countries to reject the 2024 amendments to the World Health Organization’s international health regulations. So what does all that mean? and probably more importantly, is there anything that can be done about it? Well, joining me now to discuss this is Frank Gaffney. He’s the president of the Institute for America’s Future, and he also is the host of Securing America, which is heard on Real America’s Voice Network. Frank, welcome back to Washington Watch. It’s an honor to have you, my friend.
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Well, it’s great to be with you, Congressman. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, listen, I don’t know of anyone who has kept up with this particular issue more than you. You and I have had multiple conversations about the power of the World Health Organization. So let me start with this question. Is the U.S. in any way a party to this international health regulations that WHO is in control of?
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Well, it’s a very important question, and I think it depends, really, on what is done by President Trump in the next two or three days. As things stand right now, under the Biden administration, which was only too happy to see global governance collapse, advocates, like the World Health Organization, like the United Nations, like the World Economic Forum and associated multinational companies who have been driving this train that what we need is a new world order, one that is run by elites who are not accountable, who are not elected to rule us, but who will nonetheless have the authority to do so. They have, as a result of championing in the Biden years, something called the amendments to the international health regulations, which actually predate the creation of the World Health Organization. So the World Health Organization is sort of the entity that you know, applies them and implements them and so on. But the reason I’m going to make all this plain is that just because President Trump, to his great credit, has said we’re getting out of the World Health Organization, effective as soon as possible, which is January of next year, we will still be bound by these international health regulations and the amendments thereto. that were adopted last year, if he does not say we’re out of that too. And so, as you mentioned in your opening, it’s critically important that the president take this action of formally notifying the UN, the World Health Organization, that We are not going to be bound by these amended health regulations. And for good reasons, Jody. They are very troubling on a couple of different scores, if you’d like to get into that piece.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yeah, let’s get in that. We’ve only got a couple of minutes left. So we have until July 19th, this Saturday. If it does not happen, how would the United States be obligated? How would that impact our sovereignty or whatever else would be impacted? Yeah.
SPEAKER 17 :
Well, there are basically four different ways. One is that the amendments transform the World Health Organization’s director general from a guy who provides advice which nations can take or not take about so-called public health emergencies of international concern. It changes that into being able unilaterally to declare when one exists and then to dictate what nations have to be. to do to implement his guidelines for addressing that public health emergency of international concern. So that’s one way you would see a direct affront to our sovereignty. Another is that it talks about censorship arrangements. We saw a lot of that, as you were mentioning, in connection with COVID-19. That’s an affront to our sovereignty and our personal freedoms if we’re being told you can’t say certain things because they don’t conform to the dictates of the World Health Organization. Another is a sort of surveillance state quality. They want to create digital IDs for every man, woman, and child on the planet. And they want everybody in the name of having the ability to monitor their health conditions to provide intensive personal details about their health condition.
SPEAKER 07 :
Frank, let me ask you this. What can our audience do to try to stop this power grab? We’ve got about 30 seconds.
SPEAKER 17 :
Well, I’ll just say the fourth thing is that there are also financial implications as well. We’re going to have to spend money if we’re told to do so. The bottom line is this. Get in touch with the White House. I believe the switchboard there is 202-456-1414, if I’m not mistaken. Please let President Trump know you want him to act to reject, affirmatively reject, these international health regulations and spare us the assault on our sovereignty and personal freedoms.
SPEAKER 07 :
Now is the time to let your voice be heard. Frank Gaffney, president of the Institute for American Future, thank you so much for joining us. You’ve been on top of this issue for a long time. God bless you for it. Thank you for joining us on Washington Watch. All right, don’t go anywhere. Dr. George Barna is going to be joining me next with the latest research he has. This is fascinating. How states rank when it comes to a biblical worldview. Where’s your state stack up? Well, we’ll get to it right on the other side of the break. Stay tuned.
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Family Research Council is committed to advancing faith, family, and freedom from the East Coast to the West. So FRC is going to Southern California for this year’s Pray, Vote, Stand Summit, October 17th and 18th at Calvary Chapel, Chino Hills. Join us for this powerful gathering of Christians desiring cultural renewal and spiritual revival. The Pray, Vote, Stand Summit brings together Christian leaders, issue experts, and government officials for a time of prayer, inspiration, and action. Together, we will seek God’s guidance for our nation and engage in meaningful discussions on the intersection of faith, government, and culture. If the spiritual foundations and the cultural walls of our nation are to be rebuilt, we all have a role to play. May we each find our place on the wall as we build for biblical truth. Register now at PrayVoteStand.org. That’s PrayVoteStand.org.
SPEAKER 05 :
Jennifer, it’s so exciting to be here with you today talking about our new book, Embracing God’s Design. Who is actually going to benefit from reading this book in your view?
SPEAKER 22 :
There are so many different audiences that can benefit. The first one are counselors themselves, because we have some material in there where we really address the gender dysphoria diagnosis and what is wrong with it. We have information for people who are wanting to go back to embracing God’s design for their life.
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This is really magical to have the therapist and the individual who suffered come together and write about why this is happening and why we’re seeing this.
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And we brought all of that experience to the table. We want to see people walking in the fullness of who God has called them to be and not a false identity.
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Order today at embracethedesign.com.
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How should Christians think about the thorny issues shaping our culture? How should Christians address deceitful ideas like transgenderism, critical theory, or assisted suicide? How can Christians navigate raising children in a broken culture, the war on gender roles, or rebuilding our once great nation? Outstanding is a podcast from The Washington Stand dedicated to these critical conversations. Outstanding seeks to tear down what our corrupt culture lifts up with an aim to take every thought and every idea captive to the obedience of Christ. Whether policies or partisan politics, whether conflict in America or conflict abroad, join us and our guests as we examine the headlines through the lens of Scripture and explore how Christians can faithfully exalt Christ in all of life. Follow Outstanding on your favorite podcast app and look for new episodes each week.
SPEAKER 07 :
Welcome back. Hope you are having a great day. I’m Jody Heiss, an honor to be filling in today for Tony here on Washington Watch. Now, before I get to my final guest, friends, I’ve got a very, very important action item for you. We are calling on the Trump administration to take immediate action and decisive action to end the Biden-era policies that allowed dangerous abortion drugs to be trafficked literally across state lines. And so I’m encouraging you, if you have not already done so, I’m strongly encouraging, pleading with you to sign our petition calling, asking the Trump administration to restore and strengthen FDA safety standards for Mifepristone. And we’re asking the Trump administration to direct the Department of Justice to enforce federal law. And we really… need your voice to be behind this, to give strength to it. So I’m asking you to sign a petition. Simply text the word LIFE to 67742. That’s LIFE to 67742. And again, thank you in advance for helping us with this. Okay, I don’t think I need to tell anyone in this audience that America was founded on Judeo-Christian values, Judeo-Christian principles. But neither do I have to tell you that many in America today have walked away from that. In fact, the real question is now, how many Americans actually still maintain a biblical worldview? And speaking of that, across the country, does a biblical worldview differ from state to state? Does it differ from region to region? Are there particular traits that are in common with more biblically engaged states versus ones that hold to a more biblical outlook? Well, here now to share more about what he has found in this whole discussion is Dr. George Barna. Of course, he’s a professor at Arizona Christian University, where he leads their cultural research center. And he is also senior fellow here at the Family Research Council’s Center for Biblical Worldview. Dr. Barna, always an honor to have you on the program, sir. Thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER 11 :
Jody, thank you. It’s always great to be with you.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, I have been absolutely fascinated by this recent study you have given. I’ve heard you speak about it in other places, and I’ve just been sounding the alarm here saying we’ve got to have George on to talk about this. So thank you for coming on. Let me begin with this, because I believe this is foundational for us to kind of help understand all of this. Your study uses the term integrated disciples, right? So let’s start there. What do you mean by an integrated disciple?
SPEAKER 11 :
Well, that’s a term that we use to describe people who have a biblical worldview, but it’s not just a set of beliefs that are isolated from how they act in their lives. These are people who have taken that biblical worldview and integrated it into how they live. You can tell that they’re disciples of Christ because they’ve converted their beliefs into behavior. So we use that expression to get away from simply being someone who owns a Bible or reads a Bible or goes to church or calls themselves a Christian. It’s a group of people that have committed their life to Jesus. And we know that that’s the case because you can watch them and you can understand what they believe by observing their behavior. They model what it means to be an imitator of Jesus Christ. We’re all called to be that. The Great Commission calls each of us who are that to commit our lives to making more disciples. But it’s shocking how few of those we find in America today. You know, we’ve only got 4% of adults in the country who have a biblical worldview, which you need in order to become an imitator of Christ. Why? Because we do what we believe. And so if you want to live like Christ, you’ve got to think like Christ. Thinking like him is what enables you to act like him. and acting like him is what enables you to truly be a disciple. So we’ve only got 4% of adults in America who have a biblical worldview, only 6% of the people who call themselves Christians have a biblical worldview, only 12% of the people who would be theologically identifiable as born-again Christians, only one out of eight of them have a biblical worldview. And consequently, we’ve only got about 3% of adults in America who qualify by the standards that Jesus gives us in the scriptures as disciples. So we’ve got a long way to go, Jody.
SPEAKER 07 :
We’ve got a long, long ways to go. And that’s why, to me, I wanted to start here because this whole term sets apart other research about, like you said, who reads the Bible, who maybe attends churches, who professes Christianity. We’re talking about integrated disciples, people who are authentic followers of Jesus. And when you look at those numbers, It’s frightful. We’ve got a long ways to go. So your research, among other things, you’ve ranked states as to where they stand in all this, 4% of the country, but that varies from state to state. Can you share with us maybe the top 10 states with the highest adults who embrace a biblical worldview?
SPEAKER 11 :
Yeah, if we look at that top 10, what we find is Alabama and Mississippi are considerably ahead of all of the other states. On average, they’ve got about 12.5% of the people in their states who have a biblical worldview. And again, that’s compared to a national average of 4%. So roughly three times the national average. Then it drops down to South Carolina around 10%. Arkansas at 9%. Montana at 8%. Virginia and Idaho around 7%. You’ve got Oklahoma, Tennessee about 6.5%. And rounding out the top 10, you’d have North Carolina just above 6%.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, so let’s go to the other end of the spectrum. What are the lowest? There’s got to be pretty drastic. If the national average is 4%, we’re starting with some up above 10%. What are the 10 worst states?
SPEAKER 11 :
Well, by far the worst is Rhode Island. I should mention that our ranking covers only 45 of the 50 states, so there are five other states we don’t have in here. But 45th out of the 45 is Rhode Island, with less than one quarter of 1% of the adult population of Rhode Island having a biblical worldview. Then the other ones in the bottom 10 include Maine at about 1%, Nebraska, 1.5%. You’ve got Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Connecticut, each a little bit under 2%. You’ve got New Mexico around 2%, New Hampshire at about 2.5%, and then you’ve got Louisiana and New York at about 3%. So those are the bottom 10.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, as you’re going through that list, first of all, my real question is, what is the deal with Rhode Island? How did they get right around one quarter of 1%? But while you were going through that, Nebraska shocked me. Let’s start with the Rhode Island question, though, first. How did they end up at a quarter of 1%?
SPEAKER 11 :
Yeah, you know, when you think historically about New England and where we got the country from, New England, people living there coming over for religious freedom, wanting to worship God, love God. And now you see what’s happened in New England, it being the lowest. of the nine census divisions in terms of biblical worldview. It’s pretty tragic. Rhode Island is a great example of what happens there. They’ve given up on the basics. There’s something that we call the seven cornerstones of a biblical worldview. Seven very basic beliefs that if you own those beliefs, you don’t just give them verbal assent, but you believe them, you live them, you profess them to other people, it’s part of your identity, part of who you are, you’re probably gonna go on and develop a biblical worldview. Not the case in Rhode Island, where we find that they’re very, very low on these seven cornerstones. Simple things like believing in the God of the Bible, believing that we as human beings are sinners, believing that the only antidote to our sin is Jesus Christ saving us, believing that there is such a thing as absolute moral truth, believing that the Bible contains that absolute moral truth, that it’s a reliable and trustworthy guide for our lives, believing that success can best be defined in life as consistent obedience to God, and believing that the general purpose for our life is to know, love, and serve God with all our heart, mind, strength, and soul. Seven very simple things you probably learned in Sunday School 101, but that’s something that most people in Rhode Island do not believe.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, so real quickly, and I want to go to another topic, but how do you explain Nebraska and all of this? That was a surprise to me when you mentioned them in the bottom ten.
SPEAKER 11 :
Yeah, I’ll be honest with you, it surprised me too. There were a number of surprises we found. Texas was a surprise, a few other states as well. I’m not sure at this point how to explain Nebraska. We’ve got to do follow-up research to figure that out because that certainly came out of nowhere. Just as finding that Texas is in the middle of the pack, it ranked 27th out of the 45 states that were ranked. Again, another surprise.
SPEAKER 07 :
Wow. If I can, George, let me shift gears. Another study that you came out with indicates that millions of deity doubters are now open to possibly being persuaded that the God of the Bible does in fact exist and that he’s able to influence and change lives. Tell us a little bit about that. How many people are we talking about in this universe that you’ve identified?
SPEAKER 11 :
Well, when we look at the people who don’t believe that God exists, and of course there are certain levels, different levels of that. You’ve got people who say they’re absolutely certain God doesn’t exist. You’ve got people who say they’re pretty certain, but not doubt-free about their doubts. So you put it all together, and what you wind up with is about 72 million people, adults in America, who are saying that they doubt that God exists. But then when we look at how many of them say, but if they encountered a good argument from a person they found convincing or persuasive, they might be willing to change their mind and believe that God exists. I mean, we’ve got 34% who say they’re completely open. among the doubters to getting rid of their doubt, to saying, yeah, maybe God does exist. You got another 38% who say they might be open if they found that kind of persuasive person with a really strong argument. So there’s a lot of hope out there. Even a lot of the people who right now are ignoring God and turning their backs on him, many of them are saying, yeah, but I’m open to change.
SPEAKER 07 :
Well, that’s fascinating. I mean, we’re talking, I don’t know, probably somewhere between 45 and 50 million people based on that who, at least to one degree or another, are open to that discussion and even open to changing their beliefs about God, the existence of God. So that leads me to this all-important question, therefore, George. What are some tangible… things, perhaps conversations that our audience can utilize to persuade people in their own lives that fall into this category to consider the God of the Bible.
SPEAKER 11 :
You know, we’ve been looking into that. I’m doing a lot of research on that right now, and what we’re consistently finding is that what makes a difference is when you can develop trust in the mind and heart of the other person they know you they trust you they’re willing to have conversations with you and the best approach to take is not to tell them that they’re wrong not to tell them they’re stupid not to tell them they’re going to hell it’s to continue to build that trust-based relationship with them let you let them know that you really do care but that you’re really interested in what they’re thinking and how they came to their conclusions. And having what we would refer to as a Socratic conversation, which means that instead of telling them, well, let me tell you what the truth is. Let me tell you what you ought to believe. Let me tell you what a smart person would buy into. Instead, what you do is you keep asking, well, what do you think about God? How did you come to that conclusion? How certain are you of that? What kind of things have changed your mind in the past? Because we find that most people who today are adults and say that they don’t believe in God also tell us that at one point in their life when they were younger, they did believe in God. And so there were things that changed their perspective. And so for us to understand that and to maintain this kind of conversation, then we get to keep asking them what they believe, what they don’t believe, why they believe it, why they don’t believe it. And what we find is that over the course of time, a couple of things happen. One is that they become more interested in the topic. A second thing is that they tend to enjoy the conversation if we’re not threatening them, if we’re not… overtly trying to get them to change. Now, somebody who doesn’t believe in God, I want them to believe in God because I know God exists. I know he’s the center of my life and I know he changes everything in my life. I want them to believe that too. But they’ve got to own that. They’ve got to get there on their own. I can’t force them to believe it. So having these conversations are critical. And the other main thing that I want to leave behind with everybody is that when you have these conversations, one of the elements that comes with it is the person that you’re conversing with starts watching you very carefully all the time because they want to see how do these beliefs manifest themselves in your behavior. How does it change who you are and how you live? What difference does it make? Is it real or is this just an argument that you’re trying to get me to buy into so that you win the argument?
SPEAKER 07 :
Which goes all the way back to where we started being an integrated disciple and an authentic follower of Jesus makes all the difference. Dr. George Barna, Senior Research Fellow here at the Family Research Council’s Center for Biblical Worldview. Absolutely a fascinating research and discussion that we’ve been able to have. Thank you so much for coming on the program and sharing with us.
SPEAKER 11 :
Thank you, Jody.
SPEAKER 07 :
All right, friends, a wide, wide open door right there for the Church of Jesus Christ to have an enormous impact. Wow. Thank you so much for joining us yet again here on Washington Watch. Hope you have a wonderful evening. Look forward to seeing you again tomorrow, same time. God bless.
SPEAKER 24 :
Washington Watch with Tony Perkins is brought to you by Family Research Council and is entirely listener supported. Portions of the show discussing candidates are brought to you by Family Research Council Action. For more information on anything you heard today or to find out how you can partner with us in our ongoing efforts to promote faith, family and freedom, visit TonyPerkins.com.
