The discussion continues with an exploration of the duties of religious leaders in guiding their flock. With compelling analogies and real-world examples, the episode examines the importance of maintaining clear moral boundaries for the community. Our speakers also engage in a thought-provoking dialogue on the weaponization of canon law, the pluralism of religions, and the essential characteristics of true charity in religious leadership. Join us for an insightful conversation that addresses both the strengths and challenges within today’s church and its teachings.
00:09:59 Plurality of Religions and Church Authority
SPEAKER 02 :
One day you stole me, nuncia vit Maria,
SPEAKER 01 :
At age 10, Father Andre escaped Christian massacres by living in caves in Mount Lebanon with his family. Today, Father Andre works tirelessly to encourage American leaders to keep God in the public square, defending religious freedom at home and abroad, so that all might live in peace for the glory of God. Founder and president of the Mission of Hope and Mercy, Father Andre has learned the secret to safety, joy, and peace. Love God and one another. Now, let us spend 33 minutes on the Lord’s Day, retuning ourselves to the truth of love in the hands of God.
SPEAKER 02 :
our conversation now via our irrevocable. You know, you spoke about the consequences and you’re a lawyer. So obviously your mind is geared that way. You’re an accountant. You just look at numbers. One is one, two is two. You know, there is no relativism. So God gave you that talent. But in a relationship between a human being and God, We are between sin and grace. And St. Paul tells us clearly, whatever sin abounds, grace overflows. Or whatever sin is, grace abounds, basically. There is a relationship between sinners and God. And through the Ten Commandments, or through pursuing or clarifying, justly so, the law of the church will not be in relative to state that you can sin this much or that much. How could you still define a relationship between a human being and God in a context of sin and grace, looking at the moral theology of the church, whether on the conservative side which goes black and white many times or sometimes it loses its intent because it could turn off the love in the heart of sinners or the hope that they have a chance to repent or on the other side where everything becomes relative. How do you speak the law through charity?
SPEAKER 03 :
Sure. So the most charitable thing you can do is to guide people. uh… to amend their ways and i guess and before every profit start out by repent make straight the way the lord john the baptist said make straight kingdom of god is the kingdom of god is at hand jesus himself started out that same way too every true catholic shepherd should say those exact same words i mean i’m not gonna i can’t come up with something better than the prophets than john the baptist than jesus christ so i better be repeating what they said so why did they say that because we all are sinners and we all fall short of the kingdom and like i think what saint john said he who says he’s not a sinner is a liar because because we all are and you know i don’t know i mean i call out sin as sin uh where i get upset is when a shepherd tries to define sin as not sin as Shepherd tries to normalize grave sin as it’s okay, it’s just an irregular relationship, for instance. So where do you draw the line with charity? The most charitable thing I can do is to call them back from their grave sin. So we see that in Ezekiel, I think it’s chapter 33, where God says, I’ve appointed you watchtower over Israel, and if you see somebody in error, that person’s gonna die in error. If you see it and you don’t call them out, then I’m gonna hold you, he’s gonna die, but so are you. I’m gonna hold you responsible because you didn’t do your job to call out the sinful error. It’s not uncharitable to call someone a sinner. It’s the most loving thing you can do. So the difference as I see it between defining sin and then calling out sinners and then being really critical, uh… the criticism is great for the shepherds who mislead and misguided and try to change the definition of sin as almighty god has has defined it because he’s the one that he’s the one that defines it not us uh… so i like to think of it this way i use this example and it’s from law school i mean you have these these experiences in life you don’t even realize god is going to take that and use it later on there’s a case in law school so you know how on a highway you’ve got lines painted on the side of the road And that’s so to prevent you from running off the road and getting killed or killing other people. Lying down the middle of the road, same thing. Well, on a dark and stormy night, the road department had not maintained the lines. The lines became blurred, hard to see, and a young man drove off the road and got killed. So his parents sued the highway department for failing to maintain the bright lines. And they won. They won a big settlement because of the negligence of the highway department in not making those lines clear, not maintaining those lines. What has happened in our church today? What has happened in our world today? The bishops have failed to paint those lines, to maintain those lines, to guide us on the narrow road to heaven. So I would send that to my bishop because he was complaining about me painting those lines. I said, or complaining about me being vigorous in my preaching. So I explained to him this business about, it’s my job to paint those lines so that the people can stay inside the lines and not run out and get killed. not eternally killed, we’re talking souls here. And he looked at me and he said, gee, I never thought of it that way. And I thought, well, what are you thinking, Bishop? That’s your job. You’re gonna be held accountable for that. So as to charity, what does it really mean to be charitable? The most charitable thing you can do is to warn someone when they’re gonna veer off the road, to paint the lines so that they can see these are the lines that Jesus taught. These are the lines for which he gave himself on the cross. These are the lines. He expects us to stay. And if we sin and go outside those lines, he has given us repentance and the sacrament of confession to bring us back inside those lines. We all drive outside those lines. We all do because we’re all sinners. But the one thing we cannot do is blur those lines or pretend those lines don’t exist.
SPEAKER 02 :
Or destroy them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Or destroy them. Exactly.
SPEAKER 02 :
I remember when we were studying theology, I do not know if in America it’s the same program, but in the Middle East, we still have to study two years of canon law. And I remember, like in the introduction to canon law, and you’re a canonist, I believe, the very first thing we studied, that salus animarum supremalex ecclesia est, the salvation of souls, is the highest law. Yes! Right? Yes! Everything else!
SPEAKER 03 :
So there’s something to that last canon, salvation of souls is the supreme law of the Church.
SPEAKER 02 :
But canon law today has been weaponized. I do not want to talk a lot about our personal carrying of the cross with the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But, you know, we live at a time where canon law has been weaponized. And it seems now that the authority of the bishop is the supreme law of the church.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
What’s happening?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. So here’s where people are… Well, first of all, they’re hypocritical, but they are also, I call it the rule of a lots, and it goes like this. A lot of people have a lot to say about a lot of things they know nothing about, one of which is canon law, and one of which is the word obedience. as to obedience dr peter kushnesky has a great book called true obedience it’s a very small book everybody should read it you get a better understanding of it the question that you just asked but here’s the deal um you get your answer for what obedience is by looking at the apostles peter and the apostles after they arrested for the second time in the temple acts chapter 5 and the hierarchy of the day said to them, hey, we told you to quit preaching that guy’s name. You want to bring his blood down upon our heads? And Peter could have said, well, you asked for it because remember before Pilate, they said, let his blood be on our head and on our children. But what Peter said was this, we must obey God rather than man. You and I must obey God rather than some man-made canon law when it is as you have said, good father, as it has been weaponized. So here’s an example of how it’s been weaponized. Let’s say the bishops created a canon that says, if you say something bad about us, that causes scandal and therefore we can punish you in their various forms of punishment, including excommunication or laicization. And then they go out and they misbehave. And if you criticize them, they invoke that canon as if you’re the bad guy. Listen, I’m not the one that misbehaved. I’m only the one who talks about it. You know, Pope St. Gregory the Great said, better you expose their scandal to the light than let it fester and make things worse. So it has been weaponized like as if the bishop is a petty tyrant in his own little fiefdom. Sorry, bishop. No, you don’t have that authority. You have one job. That’s to serve God by bringing his people to the truth of God, which means you better be preaching the truth. And when you see my own bishop said to me, to my face in his office, well, 80% of Catholics don’t know right from wrong because we bishops have failed to teach them for the last 50 years. That was five years ago, so now we’re talking 55. Well, and then Cardinal Dolan shows up on an interview on CBS, and he says pretty much the exact same thing. We failed to teach the faith for the last 50 years. Well, okay, then I can criticize that, Bishop, because that’s your job. And you can’t get mad and try to invoke some canon on me because I expose you for the foul work you haven’t done. You see, so yeah, it has been weaponized. And now you speak anything, even the obvious stuff. like the Ten Commandments are not rigid, or God willed a plurality of religions when Bergoglio signed the Abu Dhabi Agreement. I’m sorry, no. Here’s what I say. So anybody that wants to… This alone makes him not Catholic. Because when you apostatize and you say God wills a plurality of religions, here’s what I say to people. How about you go up to Calvary and stand next to Mary who’s watching her son suffer on the cross? And you say, hey Mary, why is he doing that? God willed the plurality of religions. There are many voices. There are many ways to go to heaven. Or as Bishop Barron said, oh, Jesus is just the privileged way. How about you say that to Mary at the foot of the cross, who then looks up at her son suffering, bludgeoned, crowned with thorns, scourged, breathing, suffocating, and say, have Mary say, hey, Jesus, I know you can do it. You just come down off that cross because you made a mistake, Jesus. God, your Father, will the plurality of religions. If you say something like that, they will invoke canon law to try to silence you, to cancel you, to exile you, to excommunicate you, to laicize you.
SPEAKER 02 :
What happens to us in this format, I would say, that is really pushed by them. And obviously, it’s a situation. It’s not only happening with one, not with two, not with three. And of course, we go, you know, a younger priest, as you have heard, and I’m sure you’ve read about it, in Italy committed suicide. They say he committed suicide. This is what the local diocese said. And it seems, you know, people are not aware of the suffering of the priest, right? No. Have you seen people aware of our personal suffering? Are we allowed to talk as a priest about personal suffering?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I would tell you that the people that you can speak that freely to are few. They are the most faithful Catholics I’ve found, the most aware of what is going on.
