Join Angie Austin as she explores the complex yet heartfelt journey of Chuck and Ashley Elliott, counselors who have turned their personal experiences with loss into a mission to help others. This episode covers a spectrum of topics from coping mechanisms, dealing with misconceptions about grieving, to finding strength through faith. Highlighting segments like trust rebuilding after breaches and the benefits of mental stability exercises, listeners are offered a holistic approach to overcoming personal and emotional hurdles.
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SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome to The Good News with Angie Austin. Now, with The Good News, here’s Angie.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hey there, friend. Angie Austin with the good news. So glad to have you and also to welcome Chuck and Ashley Elliott. Their book is I Used to Be, How to Navigate Large and Small Losses in Life and Find Your Path Forward. Welcome to you, Chuck and Ashley Elliott. Angie, thank you so much for having us. We’re looking forward to it. You are welcome. All right, so Ashley, just start with you. Before we start about the book, you know, because people are like, Chuck and Ashley, like, what’s their story? So tell us a little bit about the two of you, and then Chuck will have you give me the lowdown on the book. So Ashley, you first.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, well, Chuck and I met in college. We went to Lee University, and we met there and ended up, just when we were dating, that I knew that I felt a call to ministry, and I wanted that to be something that I was able to share with my husband, and so that was something that he was already doing ministry at a church down the street, and so that was a good fit. And we got to know one another. Racquetball was our first date. That was a good sign that we could have fun together. And so we’ve just continued to do ministry together in a lot of different ways over our years of marriage and so our one year into marriage we started doing marriage ministry and that was something that we really enjoyed doing together but we mostly worked separately doing our normal jobs and I’m a counselor I worked at a university for 11 years and he’s a pastor and has leadership experience so we’ve kind of put those things together and said, man, we really want to do some things together on the side as well. And then we wanted to write a book, but we ended up facing recurrent miscarriage. And so we were kind of between, do we want to do a book on marriage? Do we want to do a book on grief? And we kind of landed on, let’s do a relational book together. on large and small losses and the way that we face grief and loss and struggle whenever we go through hard times and try to help people not isolate and be able to connect with others. So that’s a little bit about our story and how we’ve connected and gotten to this point.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, I can tell you a little bit about the book. And wait, Chuck, I want to know, how long have you guys been married? We’ve been married for 16 years. Okay, and you met in college. I love this. Okay, all right. So now a counselor and a pastor, so perfect for, you know, working with people in church, working on marriages and obviously losses. So give us the lowdown on how the book helps us with losses and what I Used to Be is all about.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, so you can hear it in the title, I Used to Be, and it’s referring to, okay, I My identity has changed. I’ve lost somebody or something that I love. Because if I’m going to ask you, Angie, to tell me a little bit about yourself, you might tell me about your roles in your relationships. Where do you work? Kiddos, spouse, those type of things. And if you lose one of those, then it can really shake our identity and make us wonder, okay, who am I now? Because if somebody asked me about me, I’d say, well, I’m a husband to Ashley, and I work at a church, and I have three sons, and These are some of the things I enjoy, and when that changes, we can wonder, all right, what does it mean for me to navigate this loss and take a path forward? And that’s what we do with the book. Something about the book is it would be like if you’re sitting with Ashley and I across the table from us or in a counseling room, and we try to make it conversational and approachable in a relational format because so many things are impacted today. in grief, especially our relationships. So it’s a book about grief and loss, but it really takes a relational approach.
SPEAKER 06 :
I love that. All right, so let’s start off, and either of you can jump on this one. Right in the beginning, you talk about the day everything changed. So of course, I’m curious, what was that day?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, so that day refers to when Ashley and I had a break in trust. Ashley and I, we were saving sex for marriage, but just a couple months before we got married, Ashley found inappropriate images on my computer, and that was a break in trust. Now, grief and loss isn’t always just when somebody passes away or something tragic happens, but it can also be a major break in trust like what we had. And we realized that grief is a part of that. And we’ve rebuilt trust and had conversations and had accountability and done that. But it doesn’t mean that there are some things in the relationship that aren’t impacted by that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, we noticed that sometimes people isolate whenever they go through a hard time. So if I’m frustrated about something with our relationship, i might not feel like i want to talk to my friends or i might just feel like i want to stay in bed and so people can vary greatly on how they isolate but we even notice that people they don’t always isolate physically but they’ll isolate emotionally and so with our miscarriages that’s something that i felt like i did i would still go to work and still go to places but i would feel like i couldn’t invest in people as deeply as i had previously and so i was just kind of withdrawn emotionally and we notice that other people would feel that as well. And so any sort of loss that we go through kind of shakes us. And maybe we don’t feel like we have as much stability. We don’t feel like we have as much that we can pour out. Because I’ve heard someone use a battery analogy. They’re like, my battery drains so quickly. I feel like I don’t have a very strong battery right now. And so one of the things that we do in the book is we just give people permission to look at their life, at their habits, And we ask them, like, document your positive and your negative coping mechanisms. And what does it look like to explore that relationship with God? And are you mad at God? And have you told God how you feel? And just processing that. And we share stories that are our stories and other people’s stories. And then one of our favorite exercises is a mental stability exercise. And what we do with this is help people get a snapshot of what their own life looks like. And so basically, you could do it as people are listening. You write on a piece of paper. On the left side, mental stability. That’s whenever you’re at your best. And on the right side of the paper, the paper right, mental instability. That’s what you’re like whenever you’re at your worst. And then in the book, we kind of take you through these examples and you can do the same thing here. But to say, how often do I take a shower when I’m at my best? Oh, maybe every day or every other day at my work. Oh, I do skip a day or whatnot. And some people don’t have any changes from one side to another. And that’s great, too. But a lot of people will have some changes. So we can also look at eating habits, spiritual habits, exercise habits and all of these different things. And whenever you get it on paper, you go, oh, I never realized that I, you know, eat out whenever I get really stressed out or if I’m having a hard time. And so just having that awareness is powerful. And then people can then say, what’s one small thing? Maybe look at that mental instability list. You go, okay. I’m more likely to maybe not take a shower, eat out, I’ll skip out, skip on the workout or I won’t read God’s word. And so when I’m feeling like I’m at my worst, the next time I get to that place, what’s the easiest thing I can do? And oftentimes people say, probably go ahead and take a shower. And so then they’re tucking that away and say, next time I get in the space, I’m going to try to take a shower. I’d be curious about my thoughts, my feelings, my behavior and how that’s impacting my life so that I can work to build stability over time.
SPEAKER 06 :
So, um, so I love, well, two things, just, um, the honesty that, you know, you could easily write this book and not, you know, um, you know, bear all of your sins per se, or put it all out there. Um, and that you’re, you’re feeling like, Hey, we’re going to put it out there and talk about the day everything changed when trust was changed. And then I’m curious to actually, did you feel like, because that in the past had been more of a I don’t know why, but taboo topic. So in terms of miscarriages. So when you were going through that, did you feel comfortable as a counselor married to a pastor and in the church that this was something you could just throw it out there and start talking about openly? Or was it something you felt you kind of couldn’t talk about openly or were scared? I have always wondered why it used to be a taboo topic.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, I wouldn’t say that I felt like culturally I couldn’t bring it up, but I would say I didn’t often bring it up. And I think some of the reasons are because I’m really good at being the ministry leader, the counselor, the person who listens, who I talk. I’m a talker, but I’m not usually talking about negative things. Mm-hmm. for me to say, I’m really struggling right now. That was hard for me and still it’s hard for me. And so I noticed that I wasn’t sharing, but then I would find myself feeling hurt. Like no one’s asked me how I am. And, and so I would feel like I’m just going around. I look like I’m okay, but I’m not as okay as everybody might think I am. And, and that’s something that I’ve noticed within myself that I often feel something feelings deep inside that I don’t necessarily share because not because I feel like culture wouldn’t accept it, but because people aren’t asking. And I haven’t completely figured out how to fix that, fix that for myself. But I do try to make a habit of just asking my loved ones and counseling clients, you know, just like, tell me how you are and what are the things that, you know, are rolling around in your mind, maybe struggles that you have. But I know a lot of women, they do feel like it’s this unseen,
SPEAKER 04 :
struggle because you know if you weren’t really far along and you didn’t talk about it all the time people may not notice and they may not say much about it so they might think that you’re fine something that we also read about is the man’s perspective on it because since i know that i didn’t experience it the same way i actually did and it’s a it’s a different level of loss and grief and connection i felt like i didn’t have a place to say anything about it Most people come to me and they say, oh, how’s Ashley doing? But it was rare that they’d ask, how are we doing?
SPEAKER 06 :
Oh, how are you? I never thought about that, Chuck, because it’s a big loss for you, too. I never thought about that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, and I felt like, OK, I don’t want to be selfish here and say, well, what about me? Right. People are asking how Ashley’s doing. Obviously, rightfully so. I understand that I don’t get it, but I still had a little one that I lost. I had planned on having a child. that didn’t make it like my baby died too and there was a there was a time that i was at a family member’s house and it was a sister-in-law that just sat down next to me at the counter um the big counter the island in the kitchen and she looked right at me and she said chuck i’m sorry that your baby died and it just hit me like a ton of bricks because I felt seen and she recognized that it was my baby too. And it wasn’t anything to minimize what Ashley was going through, but it allowed me to communicate. And I found that when I communicated what I was feeling, it freed up Ashley to be able to do that more as well. And sometimes if any other guys or people are like me, they may feel like, well, if I bring it up, I’m going to make her more sad. But that wasn’t the case when I didn’t bring it up and made her feel like I didn’t care.
SPEAKER 03 :
And I didn’t hear that comment that she said, but if I had heard her, I wouldn’t have felt like it was my baby, not yours. And I think that that’s sometimes this underlying fear or just thought that, oh, I don’t have a right to be grieving. I think that that’s pretty common with other things, you know, just in life, you know, oh. People just, especially in the church, say good things. Like, oh, we’ll just be glad that you can go find another job. Oh, well, are you able to have another baby? Oh, good, I’m glad that you’ve been able to get pregnant. You say the positive as if that’s supposed to just make it okay. And the Bible talks about lamenting, and it’s okay to grieve. And so we try to give ourselves permission and other people to have play for the sadness. Like, yes, we can be positive. We don’t have to sit and wallow for days. But we also can be sad and then make room for that as well.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, I am. I’m glad you brought that up because I think we do focus on the mom. And that’s pretty cool that your sister-in-law thought to bring it up to you. And we’re going to move to the next segment in a minute here. But Chuck, out of curiosity, how did you react the second she asked that to you? Did it make you want to cry or were you just happy that you were seen? Yes. Both. Both. All right. All right.
SPEAKER 04 :
All right.
SPEAKER 06 :
If you’re just joining us, we’re talking to Chuck and Ashley Elliott, and we’re talking about how to navigate through grief with biblical mental health tools and how. Hope and joy and stability can be yours again. The book is I Used to Be, How to Navigate Large and Small Losses in Life and Find Your Path Forward with Chuck and Ashley Elliott. And you can find them at chuckandashley.com, chuckandashley.com. And you’re listening to The Good News with Angie Austin. And we will be right back to continue our conversation with Chuck and Ashley.
SPEAKER 01 :
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SPEAKER 03 :
Edgewater is tuned to the mighty 670 KLT.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hey there, friend. Angie Austin here with The Good News. We are continuing our conversation with Chuck and Ashley Elliott. The book is I Used to Be, How to Navigate Large and Small Losses in Life and Find Your Path Forward. You know, navigating through grief, whether it’s a big loss, a small loss, using these biblical mental health tools. Chuck is a pastor, Ashley is a counselor, and they work with people on relationships, marriages, etc., and obviously grief. And so we were just discussing the loss, the miscarriages, dealing with that grief, and How Chuck wanted to be seen, too, because he had lost a child. Let’s talk about some of the coping mechanisms that you all teach people in the book. I used to be.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Well, the first exercise we give people is to just be aware. Like, what are your coping mechanisms? And we allow them to make a list. We have a little space in the book, but people can also do it on paper or pencil to write down your positive coping mechanisms and your negative coping mechanisms. And some people might say, I don’t know if it’s positive or negative, and that’s fine. Just pick the category, and then we’ll go back and look at it. But let’s just say with – we’ll just take an example of someone who has lost a loved one due to death, since we haven’t touched on that yet. Maybe their coping mechanism, you know, a negative one was to just shut down. And they say, like, I just haven’t wanted to talk to anyone. I don’t want to respond to texts. I don’t want to respond to calls. And maybe then they’re getting to some more severe things, like they’re not wanting to get out of bed or not wanting to go to work or do any of the next things that are coming up. But maybe they could recognize some positive coping mechanisms that they’ve just been thinking about that loved one. And just wondering what it would be like to be in heaven, be together. You know, there’s some things like it’s not always that we have all bad coping mechanisms at one time. We have oftentimes a mixture. And so just giving ourselves space to see the good and the bad is helpful. But then the next step is to look. deeper and say what needs are being met by by this so the negative coping like maybe sleeping but what’s the good we call that the function in the dysfunction what’s the good in that negative behavior so to sleep feels good feels comforting and then we might also help us to avoid or forget And so maybe the person can say, well, the good there is that I’m able to meet some of my basic needs, but how then can I meet those needs in healthier ways? So I want to make sure I’m getting eight hours of sleep or whatever the hours of sleep that we typically would get to feel rested. And maybe you need a little bit more because when we go through trauma, when we go through grief, sometimes we do feel a little bit more emotionally drained. But as we’re looking at our coping mechanisms, We can gain insights and learn to empathize with ourselves and say, I am not a terrible person just trying to destroy myself. Even if people are doing bad, they do bad for good reasons. They do it to feel good, to get their own justice or vindication. And so if we lean in to those negative behaviors, then we can find the needs that are underneath there. And especially for bringing God into that space, we can practice bringing God into our negative spaces and having him help us shift back toward a positive space.
SPEAKER 06 :
You know, that’s great info, actually. Chuck, you both in your book talk about giving yourself permission to grieve. I know men especially, but, you know, women as well. But oftentimes our coping mechanism is to just ignore it and think it’s going to go away. We don’t want to wallow in it. We don’t want people to bring it up. We don’t want to acknowledge that, you know, we’re having a difficult time with it. And just ignorance is bliss. If I just ignore this, it’s better. So one of the things you talk about in part one is giving yourself permission to grieve. It’s sad to me that there’s been such a stigma, and in particular, I know men feel it, about getting help or seeking someone out. And that’s what I’m so grateful for. You know, like Zoom calls and the ability for people to get counseling where they’re in their own home and they’re embarrassed to sit in a waiting room, per se. Having a brother that was murdered but suffered from mental illness and another brother that’s been homeless many years also suffering from it. I’d say half of my family suffers from not just depression, but like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, seasonal affective disorder, depression, a plethora of things. And I just it’s so sad to me that if my brother had had cancer, people like, oh, your poor brother. You know, he’s crazy. It’s like shameful, you know. So giving yourself permission to grieve, that’s a big thing.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, it is. And Angie, just the way that you said that people not recognizing it. And there’s this big comparison. Sometimes there’s comparison grief or there’s times that we feel like it’s disenfranchised, which means that society as a whole or other people around you don’t recognize it as grief, which makes you feel like you need to hide it. And like you were saying before, with men, sometimes they think they can numb that part of their life. But we cannot selectively numb. If you are just shutting off relationships or shutting off a friendship because you lost one of your friends, like you can’t just shut off that part. You’re going to be a less good friend to the rest of the friends that you have left because you’re not processing the grief of the one that you lost. And there are side effects and things that happen when we do not allow ourselves to grieve. Sometimes people think that it’s selfish to grieve because I’m just going to think about myself and get into my emotions and do this when I would be more of a service to the people around me if I would just get over it and move on. And that’s not true. That’s one of the lies that grief tells us. If we will take the time to work through some steps like we talk about in the book, we wholeheartedly believe and seen it happen many times that people are more effective in their jobs, more effective with the relationships that they have, more effective in the ministry they do, more open to the next relationship or the ministry that God’s putting before them. It is not selfish to allow yourself to grieve. It is actually brave. It is often hard emotional, mental, and spiritual work, but the results that come from that are great.
SPEAKER 06 :
I love that you use the word brave because I would like more people and men in particular. I know I’m emphasizing that, but I just see so many men not wanting to acknowledge their depression, their sadness, whatever, or the embarrassment or thinking it’s a sign of weakness. I do think it’s a sign of strength. I think it is a strong man and woman who will acknowledge that they’re in pain and seek out help. I think it is brave and it does take courage.
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh.
SPEAKER 06 :
You teach so many important things in this book. And we’ve got about eight minutes left. Why don’t you, either one of you, Ashley, if you want to jump in, feel free. Some of the most important things you teach in this. And out of curiosity, because you speak, what are some of the most common things that you do hear from people at your speaking events and in your counseling that they do need help with? What are some common things they come to you with?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, one of the things I feel like people will say, like they just feel stuck. They feel like they’ve tried everything and they can’t get out. And so we do teach… switch theory, which is a theory that I developed, um, almost, I think about a decade ago.
SPEAKER 06 :
You go girl with your switch theory.
SPEAKER 03 :
Um, but helping people to identify that when we feel stuck and we feel out of options, that’s typically a really good sign that we’re in a negative space because in a negative space, we typically are just surrounded by all of the negative thoughts, feelings, and behaviors about whatever the topic is that we’re in a negative space. So if I’m in a negative space about Chuck, um, And I might have all of these negative thoughts. It’s like they’re housed in a certain part of my brain. And then I mean, I’ll have very many. But then in a positive space, we will have most of our positive thoughts, feelings and behavior that are accessible to us. And we can get in a positive space or negative space with work, with family members, individuals, with organizations, with the church as a whole. people can get really stuck. And what happens is oftentimes an indicator is that they feel like they’re out of options and their only option is to leave or they want to leave. Like, I just want to run away. I just want to escape. And, and so what we do is we try to teach people a little bit about, you know, this process, this cognitive process that happens before people leave, before people, you know, maybe turn to alcohol or commit suicide or whatever the, um, The choice is that ends up being negative like this. There is a lot of different behaviors that are that exist in that positive space versus the negative space. So whenever we help people to see, oh, that’s true of me, they can gain insight to their positive and negative space and their patterns. and they can practice building their life in a positive space, being able to move themselves back from that negative space to a positive space.
SPEAKER 04 :
We teach people the three A’s to change, which is really simple. You just become aware that you are in a negative space and there’s something that you want to work on. Then you assess. You look at what have you done in the past? What are your options? And then you take action. You pick one of the things that you have on that assessment list of options to get back to a positive space or take a step in that direction. And then through our counseling and coaching, we work with people to keep them accountable to keep on working. Sometimes we’re just dealers of hope and telling them that they can keep on going back and trying something again. Because many times people feel like they’ve tried everything. They’ve tried everything. And sometimes we hear people say they’ve tried everything, but they’ve had one or two conversations. One or two conversations that maybe didn’t go as well as they hoped. And they feel like they’re out of options, but we’re not out of options.
SPEAKER 06 :
I love that you’re a hope pusher. I like to say I’m the president or the CEO of Hope, so I love it that you guys are the Hope dealers, the Hope pushers. All right, so we’ve got a few minutes left. What do you want the takeaway for people to be? And I love it, too, that you guys are so excited about your topic that Ashley’s like, and this, and Chuck’s like, oh, and this, and this, and this. And then the minute one of you stops talking, the other’s like, oh, I got more. So what do you want the takeaway to be from people reading the book?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, I want people to know that they can bring God into their negative space. We talked about that a little bit and actually explained it with switch theory. But God wants to be involved in every part of your life. He’s not just waiting until you get cleaned up enough. He’s not waiting until you look good enough to go to church and stand on the front row and raise your hands or to have a spiritual conversation or to look cute. He wants every part of your life. He wants to talk to you when you’re mad at him. He wants to talk to you when you feel disappointed. He wants to hear you when you feel like he’s distant and you worry that he maybe doesn’t care. Bringing God into our negative spaces is one of the most powerful, maturing spiritual acts that we can do. If you read the book of Job, if you read Psalms and hear David crying out saying, God, where are you? Why have you abandoned me? But yet I’m going to praise you. And when we do that, it’s powerful. I believe in the tools and things that we take, the techniques that we teach people. But I want people to know God on a personal level because he is the healer.
SPEAKER 03 :
And we’re not more lovable when we’re perfect. Right. Jesus, Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. And I think that sometimes whenever we have bad things happen to us, we think God doesn’t love us. We think that we’re not good enough. We feel shameful. And I remember Adam and Eve in the garden, they went and hid and God came after them and said, where are you? And, and God does pursue us. We may not always see it, but we can go to his scripture and even wrestle with scripture. Like Chuck said, you can be frustrated with scripture or frustrated with God, but taking that to God, is the answer. Running away and putting it in a box and burying it, like I’m not ever going to deal with my relationship with God, or I’m not going to deal with this grief, is not the healthy way. And so we want people not only to help themselves, but to get healthy so that then they can help others as well. I like that. Forward method that they get better and then they’re able to help people. And that’s how we can reach not just a few people, but we can change the world.
SPEAKER 06 :
Now, I know with your speaking and your counseling, you help a lot of people. So what are some of the things you’ve heard that are very satisfying or what is the most satisfying thing about doing this kind of work?
SPEAKER 04 :
With couples especially, we love it when we see couples develop spiritual intimacy where they come closer together. Many couples, they don’t pray together. They don’t read the Bible together or parents don’t know how to lead devotions with their kiddos. And incorporating faith into every aspect of somebody’s life is powerful. And whenever we get to see that happen, we know that’s a game changer. We know that’s a game changer for communication, for physical intimacy, for their sexual life, for their honesty, for feeling like God has a vision and a plan for their lives. Bringing that as a foundation and working on that intentionally because Ashley, as a licensed counselor, and we do this in coaching, yes, we work on lots of communication skills, all kinds of things to help people in that. But we know that it’s foundational, and in every session that we do, we are helping to incorporate spirituality into it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, and I had a couple recently tell me that they’re staying together and they were on the brink of divorce and they said that their relationship feels better than it’s felt in over a decade, almost two decades. And, and seeing that restoration and that joy is so rewarding. And I got a text, a text from someone yesterday that said that I’ve been there saving grace as they’ve gone through a really tragic loss of a loved one. And, and, And I am directing people to God. And Chuck tells me that I don’t always take the compliments. I’m like, I need to write them down because it is really encouraging. And on a hard day, you know, we can want to give up because ministry is hard. But knowing that this work is making a difference. And it’s not just the work that we do. There’s so many, you know, pastors and counselors that are pouring into people. And God is doing a work. He’s making change in their lives and drawing people close to them and helping and restoring what the enemy tries to destroy. And so that’s something that we’re so thankful that we’re able to bring that in our speaking, that we’re able to bring that in our counseling, and that we’re seeing life change and seeing results. Yes.
SPEAKER 06 :
Write that down. All right. I mean, for you, we write down those compliments. I Used to Be is the book, How to Navigate Large and Small Losses in Life and Find Your Path Forward. We are talking to Chuck and Ashley Elliott and their website, chuckandashley.com. What a blessing. Thanks, guys. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you for listening to The Good News with Angie Austin on AM670 KLTT.
