Dive into a fascinating discussion about the legend of Johnny Carson, as podcast host Mark Malkoff joins the show to discuss his latest book, ‘Love Johnny Carson.’ Mark shares his journey from childhood fascination to becoming a celebrated Carson expert, having interviewed over 400 people about the iconic television host. With anecdotes about Carson’s generous spirit, mysterious nature, and complex relationships, this episode offers a deep dive into a unique era of late-night TV history.
For years, I wondered if my obsession with the late Johnny Carson was, like, singular to me. I didn’t know I was—I thought I was kind of strange when I got to see a taping of The Tonight Show with the Johnny Carson. It was one of the pinnacles of my life, not so much as just a fan of The Carson Show, The Tonight Show, but as a broadcaster, because I obviously have enormous respect for for people who have the kind of longevity and the epic career status of somebody like Johnny Carson. And so, you know, that night, Burbank, there it was. I got to watch Doc Severinsen and the band, and it was transformational for me. In fact, let’s hit it. The familiar theme song, probably the most famous theme song in America. Here we go. Night after night, year after year, this show entertain America. And Mark Malkoff is a podcast host. He’s a writer. He’s a comedian. And he, for eight years, hosted the very popular podcast, The Carson Podcast, in his role as what is the self-described number one Johnny Carson superfan. And he’s got a book out called Love Johnny Carson. Mark, it’s great having you on the Mike Gallagher Show. I appreciate you joining us. How are you? Mike, I’m doing great. It’s good to see you. It’s good to see you as well. And congratulations on the book. You know, you can relate to me being excited about getting to watch the taping of The Johnny Carson Show in person. Not because I was just a typical fan who liked the show. As a broadcaster, I wanted to watch the mechanics, not only of The Tonight Show and the way all of that worked around him, but I wanted to watch him. I wanted to watch how he… behaved on the commercial breaks. So and let’s we’re going to get into all of that in just a moment. But first of all, give us your background and share with us how you became the number one Johnny Carson super fan and what and how all that led to your new book, Love Johnny Carson.
SPEAKER 04 :
Mike, it never occurred to me that I would talk to over 400 people about Johnny Carson. Mel Brooks on Johnny’s very first show, October 1st, 1962. This starts when I’m five years old. My dad would let me stay up, watch late Friday night, sometimes during the summer. And there was just something so amazing and so just special about Johnny Carson. He could talk to kids. He could be with animals, movie stars. That was my introduction to comedians. And for 30 years to dominate American culture, that’s so much so much influence on politics and fashion. So around 2012, there was a PBS American Masters Johnny Carson special. And I had so many more questions after that. That’s when I started the Carson podcast. And I had no idea. that everybody that went on the show would want to talk to me and tell me their stories. It was I would go to Los Angeles here in New York, sit in people’s living rooms. I was with Paul Anka telling me how him and Johnny worked on the theme song. It was unbelievable.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, and even the book, which I’m holding here in my hand because, look, I went right out and ordered it when I knew I was going to have a chance to talk to you. So I ordered it on Amazon. But, I mean, the praise for your book from, you know, Ray Romano and Dick Cavett and Bill Carter, who’s the author of The War for Late Night, you know, just some – and the book is splendid because this guy, he was – really mysterious in a lot of ways, wasn’t he? I mean, he had this very public persona that everybody knew and loved. But this is a guy who had a lot of layers, very complex. And in fact, the whole first part of your book, you devote to asking, what was he like off the air compared to what he was like on the air? Was he funny off the air? Was he quiet? Was he reserved? So Look, I understand your obsession because Johnny Carson, let’s face it, is just one fascinating figure of American culture.
SPEAKER 04 :
There were a lot of mysteries. The media made him out to be cold and aloof, but I would talk to his friends, the people that spent the most time, and they told me consistently, and this blew my mind, that he was almost the same Johnny Carson on and off camera, a little less gregarious. But they said it was a small group of people that Johnny really trusted where he could be himself. Whereas when he wasn’t on camera, he was shy. He was reserved, always threats to his life. I mean, John Lennon, assassin Mark David Chapman, had a short list of people to kill if it wasn’t Lennon. Johnny was on that list. Johnny had problems with alcohol. He would talk about the alcohol problems on The Tonight Show. We go into that in the book. But I have to say, I couldn’t build a number of a number of the things that Johnny did for people, helped people out financially, saved people’s lives. And it was this whole different Johnny that I was not aware of talking to these 400 people.
SPEAKER 01 :
I love the story about him running into, early in his career, but he had already achieved success, and he ran into somebody famous who was down on their luck, and they were really struggling financially. And he had his assistant bring a wad of cash over to this person and didn’t do it with a lot of fanfare. So there was a side of Johnny Carson that was very generous and very giving. Yes. Let me take you to that, if I may, that moment that I got to have where I watched a taping with Johnny Carson. And I remember thinking, man, this is like going to Oz. Because for a broadcaster like me, and I’ve been in this business since I was 17 years old. So I study radio. I study television. Spent a lot of years doing this for a living, too many to count. And I wanted to watch how – And how it unfolded where he’s on set talking to somebody. I don’t even remember who the guest was. Because all I wanted to do was watch the mechanics of the show. And it’s kind of fascinating. I’ve told this story before. But they all show up like they’re going to work. You know, Doc Severinsen would take his place. And they all get into place. And the producer and the director, all that. And they were all kind of just humdrum. Then that light goes on. The music starts. And they all come to life. Just like that. Like a switch gets turned on. And watching Carson behind his desk, and you know this from all the people you interviewed, he had a rule. He didn’t talk to guests during the commercial breaks. And I wanted to see if that was true because I thought that’s not possible. That can’t be real. Sure enough, Mark, he absolutely did not talk to any guests. The lights would dim. He’d toss it to a break. He’d be engaged in a one-on-one great, you know, rambunctious conversation with his guest. And he’d say, you know, we’re going to go to a commercial break. The lights would go down. Mark? He didn’t even look at the guest. He would look out, like gaze out over to the audience. He would be tapping the famous tap with the pencil on the desk. But he never said two words to the guest on those three, four, five-minute commercial breaks. Now, some people would write that off to just being plain weird. Odd, peculiar. He said it was because he didn’t want to get material wasted on the break that he would have done on camera. But it was more than that, wasn’t it? Isn’t that he was just fundamentally pretty shy and almost socially awkward?
SPEAKER 04 :
He was shy. A couple of things to do with it is he did want to save it. He didn’t see the guests before the show. Like Jay Leno would be somebody that would say hi. He wanted to save it. And also he’d be pacing his energy. By the time he was older, he was only doing three nights a week and it wasn’t out of laziness. He was just putting everything into the show. I mean, his staff said before the show, sparks would be flying off of him. Some hosts would go out before the show and do a warm up. Johnny wanted to save everything for that hour when he went out. And we have to remember, Mike, when he started in New York, an hour and 45 minutes every single night. So the guy definitely was shy, but there was a little bit more to it.
SPEAKER 01 :
Mark Malkoff is our guest. He’s the author of Love, Johnny Carson, One Obsessive Fan’s Journey to Find the Genius Behind the Legend. And trust me, you’ll love this book. I’m enjoying the heck out of it. I’m about halfway through, and it’s just a tremendous, tremendous read. I don’t think people fully appreciate the genius of Johnny Carson. And I want to play for you an example of that genius. I came across a clip. One of his favorite guests was Charles Grodin. And Charles Grodin, this is a memorable conversation that he once had with Charles Grodin. Pay attention to Johnny’s quit wit, his instincts, and his incredibly fast responses to a very bright guy. Charles Grodin was legendary in his cerebral humor, his dry humor. But I want to play some of this for our audience and for you, Mark. I know you know this interview well. But to me, it perfectly summarizes the genius of Johnny Carson.
SPEAKER 03 :
You’re Mr. Talk Show. To plug this book, to plug this movie. Okay, and if I would do that. What else are you here for? That’s what I’m asking. If I would do that, your attitude would be disdain. You know, when I tried to talk about my book in the hardcover, you said 1895, you know, that’s a lot of money for a book.
SPEAKER 02 :
I thought it was.
SPEAKER 03 :
I said it’s my whole life. I thought it was. You said, you know, maybe if it’s Mother Teresa’s life. You remember those things, don’t you? Yes, I do. I didn’t know you were that sensitive. You actually remember that. I’m so sensitive, I really can’t answer a question from someone who’s not interested in the question.
SPEAKER 02 :
I’m very interested in the question. All right. It’s okay. I’m used to it. Now, what does the paperback go for?
SPEAKER 03 :
This is $9.95.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, now we’re talking.
SPEAKER 1 :
All right.
SPEAKER 02 :
You should have started out with $9.95. Then this would have been $4.60 by now. I suppose the thing is to get it when you can. Are you whispering again? No, you said I’m whispering last time.
SPEAKER 03 :
You talk very softly for me. I don’t know why. This is what you sound like. Are you talking? You made a book.
SPEAKER 02 :
Have you seen those little whisper things that people get who are just on the edge of going completely deaf where you hear something?
SPEAKER 03 :
I’m going to get you one of those. You think it’s me? Yeah. I think you’re losing it. Well, maybe it is me. And now you want to know why I mistreat you. That’s right. Now, people don’t understand when you come out here. But look at you. I mean, you don’t really care what I have to say, do you, honestly? No.
SPEAKER 02 :
I’ve got to do an hour a night. Yeah. I’m looking for warm bodies.
SPEAKER 01 :
Right. I mean, Mark, this is the kind. I mean, I could play 20 minutes. It was so perfect. But it was vintage Johnny Carson. And look, that’s not scripted. None of that is thought out. That’s all spontaneous. And to me, that helps capture the real genius that was Johnny Carson.
SPEAKER 04 :
There were only three guests in the history of The Tonight Show with Johnny that Johnny wanted to put guests under contract to exclusively do his show. One was Joan Rivers. The second one was Charles Grodin. And Charles Grodin would tell me that Johnny would get all these letters from people. He’s so mean to you. Why do you put him on? But the truth is, and you and I know this, they loved each other. And they did get together when Johnny left the show. They got together and they really had a fondness for one another.
SPEAKER 01 :
Let’s talk about Joan Rivers. You mentioned that he wanted to put Joan under contract. And, of course, that was a very famous split. And, you know, I guess the key word here in that complicated relationship was loyalty. Johnny expected loyalty. And he felt, didn’t he feel betrayed by Joan Rivers?
SPEAKER 04 :
He made her the permanent guest host in 1983, and she broke Frank Sinatra’s record for residency, either in Atlantic City or Vegas. Yeah, it was the first time ever. She had all this power. Johnny gave it to her. And then in 1986, without telling Johnny, she signed a deal with Fox to go opposite Johnny. Barry Diller told me here in New York, he told Joan, Joan, you have an obligation to tell Johnny. Barry Diller said, I’m in a poker game with Johnny. We’re friends. You need to tell him. And she just her husband, Edgar, said there’s going to be unforeseen circumstances. Don’t tell Johnny. And she listened to her husband. And unfortunately, Johnny found out from an NBC exec and it was too late. And then Miss Rivers tried and she admits this. She tried to take Johnny’s producer, Peter LaSalle, to Fox, tried to steal all of Johnny Carson’s talent coordinators, offered them double their salary. And Johnny just could not understand why he did so much for this woman. His heart was absolutely broken.
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, speaking of his heartbroken, he had a lot of personal heartache in his life, didn’t he? Yes, he did. He lost his son in a tragic accident, right?
SPEAKER 04 :
1991, it was a really horrible time. His son, Rick, was 39 and was photographing. Yeah, he was on a cliff and his car went over a ravine. And Johnny took a month off and then eulogized his son. And he mentioned his good friend, Michael Landon. The last week of his life, Michael Landon called Johnny to comfort him in his last days. So. Yeah, Johnny, definitely. He took weeks off when the best drummer maybe in the world of all time, Buddy Rich, passed away. Johnny was heartbroken and took some time off. I mean, they told me before Buddy Rich, when he died right before the show, he was in his office sobbing. And I’ve watched the tape when he does his monologue. His eyes are all red from crying. It’s more emotional than people think.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, tell us about, you know, I know you’ve done the podcast and I can’t wait to start engaging in it. Tell us how that’s going and what kind of response you get to the Carson podcast.
SPEAKER 04 :
People all around the country miss Johnny Carson. There’s a reason that all the late night hosts still talk about Carson and he’s been off the air for 30 years and his name still makes news all across the country. It’s been amazing. We’re putting up new episodes. There’s people that went on the show, people that knew him, and they all want to tell the stories. Yet people, a lot of people on television, some famous people, people that aren’t famous. Just one thing is consistent. They miss Johnny. There’s a reason over three billion views on YouTube of Carson and his Tonight Show. Those Rodney Dangerfield appearances with Johnny are classic. Most comedians would do 25 jokes. Rodney would do 50. 25 at the curtain and then sit down with Johnny and do another 25. Powerhouse. And those clips are as funny as when they aired.
SPEAKER 01 :
Are there networks today, Mark, that air Carson episodes? I know there’s like nostalgic TV networks like TV Land and all of that, but is there any place where you can kind of watch? Because every time I see a clip like the Chuck Grodin clip or some of the episodes, it’s so comforting. It’s like comfort food. It’s like a memory of a time that was happier and better. He was so doggone good. Does anybody play the episodes regularly?
SPEAKER 04 :
now mark antenna tv maybe pluto but there are some episodes unfortunately for clearance rights they take out the musical guests which is a shame youtube probably has the most there’s something like 700 clips on the um johnny carson youtube channel the official and you know nbc taped over the first 10 years most of it from 1962 to 72 but they have found some kinescopes so you can watch inglorious black and white johnny carson doing his thing and those clips just never get old
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, the book is never going to get old. It’s a real treasure. I hope everybody gets it. It’s called Love, Johnny Carson by Mark Malkoff and with David Ritz as well. Mark, congratulations on the book. And I’m so, so thankful you could spend some time because like you, I’m just a huge super fan. And it’s fun to continue to see these stories about him even 30 years later. So keep it up and congratulations on the podcast. I hope to get you back on the show soon.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, Mike, I’d like that a lot. It was so good talking to you. I really appreciate it.
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