In today’s episode, Kim Munson tackles the complexities of the Electoral College in the context of America’s current political climate. Special guest Rob Nadelson brings his expertise to the conversation, shedding light on historical and contemporary issues affecting national and global politics. The discussion spans the dangers of concentrated political power and the importance of maintaining a balanced approach to governance, offering listeners a thorough understanding of both historical events and modern challenges.
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It’s the Kim Munson Show, analyzing the most important stories.
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The socialization of transportation, education, energy, housing, and water. What it means is that government controls it through rules and regulations.
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The latest in politics and world affairs.
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Under this guise of bipartisanship and nonpartisanship, it’s actually tapping down the truth.
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Today’s current opinions and ideas.
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On an equal field in the battle of ideas, mistruths and misconceptions is getting us into a world of hurt.
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Is it freedom or is it force? Let’s have a conversation.
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Indeed. Let’s have a conversation. And welcome to the Kim Munson Show. Thank you so much for joining us. You each are treasured. You’re valued. You have purpose. Today, strive for excellence. Take care of your heart, your soul, your mind, and your body. My friends, we were made for this moment in history. Thank you to the team. That’s Producer Joe, Luke, Rachel, Zach, Echo, Charlie, Mike, Teresa, all the people here at Crawford Broadcasting. Happy Monday, Producer Joe. Happy Monday, Kim. And January 6th, we are now moving into 2025. We’ve got much work to do in this battle of ideas that is raging in our country at this time. So check out our website. That’s Kim Munson, M-O-N-S-O-N dot com. Sign up for our weekly email newsletter. You’ll get first look at our upcoming guests as well as our most recent essays. You can email me at Kim at Kim Munson dot com. Text line is 720-605-0647. I want to hear from you. Thank you to all of you who support us. We are an independent voice. We search for truth and clarity by looking at these issues through the lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom. If something’s a good idea, you should not have to force people to do it. The show broadcasts 6 to 8 a.m. Monday through Friday. First hour is rebroadcast in the afternoon, 1 to 2. Second hour, 10 to 11 at night. This is on all KLZ 560 platforms. And that is KLZ 560 AM, KLZ 100.7 FM, the KLZ website, the KLZ app. Recaps of the show are on my website, kimmunson.com. And let’s see, what’s the… Oh, the podcast then can be heard on Spotify and iTunes as well. We… Look at these issues, search for truth and clarity by looking at these issues through this lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom. Something’s a good idea. You should not have to force people to do it. And it’s not compassionate to take other people’s stuff, whether or not it’s their rights, their property, freedom, livelihood, opportunities, or lives. Force can be a weapon, policy, unpredictable and excessive taxation, fear, coercion, government-induced inflation. That’s a big one right now. The World Economic Forum’s agenda, which is playing out with the globalist elite’s agenda, using the United Nations. This Colorado State Legislature has become very radical. This Colorado governor, the World Health Organization. Land use codes take away the opportunity of people to use their property the way they want to. Zoning regulations, force fees, conservation easements, national monument designations, et cetera. Remember, if something’s a good idea, you should not have to use force to implement it. We focus on the issues here on the show, not on the personalities in political personalities. We will mention people as they’re pushing for different issues, but we really want to stay focused on these issues. Let’s see. Our first thing, our word of the day is proselyte. And it is a noun. It could be a new convert to a doctrine or a religion. Number two, it could be a new convert, especially a convert to some religion or religious sect or to some particular opinion system or party. It says, thus, a Gentile converted to Judaism or a pagan converted to Christianity is a proselyte. And, of course, we have political proselytes as well. And so your word of the day, it’s spelled P-R-O-S-E-L-Y-T-E. And your challenge is to use that in a sentence today. I was looking for different justice quotes and ended up with James Monroe as our quote of the day. He was born on April 28, 1758. He died July 4, 1831. He was a founding father of the United Nations, or excuse me, United States, served as the fifth president of the United States, and he was the last founding father to serve as president. And again, he was one of the founding fathers of our country. And so interesting that he died on July 4, 1831. And apparently in that painting of Washington crossing the Delaware, the young man in the back of the boat is James Monroe. And he was, I think, 17 or 18, someone told me at that particular time. I really want to know more about him. But this is our quote of the day. He says, if it was wise, manly and patriotic for us to establish a free government, it is equally wise to attend to the necessary means of its preservation. And again, that’s James Monroe. This day in history, several things. 1773, Massachusetts slaves petitioned the legislature for freedom. That was in 1773. In 1838, Samuel Morris and Alfred Vail demonstrate their telegraph machine in New Jersey. 1839, a weather event, two-day storm off the Irish and English coast, immortalized as the Big Wind. In 1853, U.S. President-elect Franklin Pierce and his family are involved in a train wreck in Massachusetts that kills his 11-year-old son, Benny. um tragic again the same history in 1873 the u.s congress begins investigating the credit mobiliar scandal a fraud by the union pacific railroad and credit mobiliar of america in the construction of the first transcontinental railroad And Burton Folsom, who was, I think he’s formerly a professor at Hillsdale College, has written a very interesting book regarding the robber barons. And the next, this day in history is… So important. So here you’ve got government and big business getting in bed together to build the transcontinental railroad. And there’s a fraud involved. Imagine that. But the Great Northern Railway is done in 1893. It connects Seattle with the East Coast. And now I’m drawing a blank on the name of the railroad. the founder of the Great Northern Railway, but he did that all without government money, and he was the one that did that, so important. In 1914, stock brokerage firm Merrill Lynch is founded. 1929, Mother Teresa arrives in Calcutta to begin her work among India’s poorest. In 1941, U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt delivers his four freedom speech, the freedom of speech and worship, freedom from want and fear. That is… That is certainly that freedom from want and fear is a progressive tenet, because if you are going to have somebody that is free from want, that means maybe giving them things you can’t give to someone, something that you have not taken from someone else. And that was his State of the Union address. In 1974, in response to the 1973 energy crisis, daylight savings time commences nearly four months early in the United States. 1979, the Village People’s YMCA becomes the only UK number one single at its peak. It sells over 150,000 copies a day. And then 2021 was January 6th at the U.S. Capitol. And we’re going to be talking with Rob Nadelson here in this first hour regarding the Electoral College. The second hour, our featured guest is Rebecca Lovrenz, who was in Washington on January 6th, 2021. She went there to pray. She briefly entered the conference. capital, and then she was ultimately convicted of, I think, four misdemeanors. And so we’re going to want to talk with her about her story. So that is all this day in history. Headlines. Let’s see, a couple of things here. First of all, today the Electoral College should certify the election of Donald Trump. And then Mike Johnson was voted to be the House Speaker, his second term. The Douglas County Republicans choose John Carson to fill the Senate District 30 vacancy list. Number four, this is really, this is really of great concern. This is Newsmax says the Biden White House has finally admitted that China can close down our ports and our power grid. And they made this stunning admission that these Chinese hackers have this ability, and it’s reportedly not just run-of-the-mill intrusions, but increasingly sophisticated actors with unparalleled skills. Jake Sullivan, National Security Advisor, had known about the Chinese hackers’ ability to knock out critical infrastructure for more than a year, sources told The Wall Street Journal. In the fall of 2023, he had warned telecommunications and technology executives in a secret White House meeting seeking big tech’s help in protecting American lives and infrastructure from hackers. Since then, there have been at least nine U.S. telecom companies hacked, according to Deputy National Security Advisor for Cybersecurity Ann Neuberger. Trump is certainly… inheriting a ton of challenges. And then you also see so many different things that this Biden White House is trying to roadblocks marbles to put in front of Donald Trump as he’s going to be taking office. And it’s it’s really it’s talking with someone this weekend regarding the Biden administration. In many ways, it looks like incompetence. On the other hand, if in fact maybe they’re doing exactly what they wanted to do and it wasn’t incompetence. And so we are in a very dangerous situation right now here in America. And we’ve got to really roll up our sleeves and we’ve got to fix this. A couple of other things. Today is Epiphany. And it is it’s a time from a Christian standpoint, it’s a time of revelation where Jesus revealed himself to the Israelites and the Gentiles. And it’s represented by the wise men. And so today is Epiphany, which follows the 12 days of Christmastide. And Christmastide begins on Christmas Day, December 25th, and runs through the new year until today, Epiphany. And it’s these 12 days that are leading up to Epiphany, which mark the birth of Jesus. And and then Christmas Eve from the four Sundays before Christmas Eve, that is Advent. And so we’ve gone through Advent. We’ve gone through Christmas tide. Today is Epiphany. And so I thought that was super interesting as well. Wanted to make sure that we kind of stay on top of all those things as well. The show comes to you because of our sponsors, and I thank Laramie Energy for their gold sponsorship of the show. It is reliable, efficient, affordable, and abundant energy from oil, natural gas, and coal that powers our lives and fuels our hopes and dreams. This industry has been under attack by the media, certainly in academia. just legislative from a regulatory standpoint. And what is really under attack is our affordable, abundant, reliable, and efficient energy sources. And that is what actually allows us to control our own personal climate. 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And welcome back to The Kim Munson Show. Be sure and check out our website. That is KimMunson, M-O-N-S-O-N.com. Sign up for our weekly email newsletter. You can email me at Kim at KimMunson.com. And thank you to all of you who support us. We’re an independent voice. We search for truth and clarity by looking at these issues through the lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom. If something’s a good idea, you should not… have to force people to do it. I’m pleased to have on the line with me Rob Nadelson. He is an expert on the Constitution. He’s written the book, The Original Constitution, what it actually said and meant. He was a constitutional law professor for many years. He is with the Independence Institute as well. And he’s written an important piece, The Electoral College in Context. And we thought this was an excellent day to talk about this. January 6th. Welcome, Rob Nadelson.
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It’s great to be with you, and yes, it is a great day to talk about it because this is the day that Congress certifies the results from the Electoral College.
SPEAKER 16 :
And that even though there’s a storm that’s, I guess, hitting the Midwest and the East Coast, my understanding is the show will go on today and that this is going to happen.
SPEAKER 12 :
Oh, yeah, it’ll go on. And I don’t think we’ll see any street troubles that we saw four years ago.
SPEAKER 16 :
At least I hope not. I hope not. The Electoral College is, I think, misunderstood by many Americans. And this piece that you’ve written is really informative. So where do you want to start with this, Rob Nadelson?
SPEAKER 12 :
I think that I’ll start at the end in saying that we have a complicated presidential electoral system. And the electoral college is only one component of that. There actually are four separate stages. First, the people vote for electors. Then the selected electors, the people who are elected by the people, vote for president and vice president. That occurs in December. And then the third step occurs today with the counting of the ballots by a joint session of Congress. And then finally, I’m sorry, I seem to have skipped over something there, didn’t I? There’s the vote of the people themselves for electors. There’s the vote. by the electors themselves. There’s the vote, excuse me, the certification of the joint session of Congress. And then there’s a fourth step that we haven’t seen since 1824, but which kind of looms over the entire process for reasons I can explain. And that is a potential of a runoff election for president in the House of Representatives and for vice president in the Senate. But I think the place to start next would be actually at the Constitutional Convention to explain what the problem was that induced the founders to set up this system.
SPEAKER 16 :
Okay. And so what exactly was that, Rob?
SPEAKER 12 :
Well, the immediate problem was the founders were creating a republic, okay, not a monarchy. And They also wanted a unified executive. That is to say, they wanted one person to be the president rather than a council. I think we’ve seen during the Biden administration some of the dysfunction that can occur when the guy at the top is not fully functional and you’re really being operated by a shadowy council or junta. They wanted one person at the top to be responsible. However, there had almost never been a republic like that. Republics, especially democratic republics, tended to have plural executives. That is, if they had… Like in the Roman Republic, they would have two consuls. In the Republic of Bern, one of the Swiss cantons, there was a council of 27. So they were kind of mixing and matching. How do we create a unified executive… When unified executives traditionally had only been kings, but how do we create one for a republic? And then once they decided to do that, they asked the question, well, how do we elect this guy? And – People tend to simplify. This is one of the points I made in the article. People tend to simplify reasons for the Electoral College. They’ll say, well, this assures that a few cities don’t dominate the country or a few states don’t dominate presidential elections. It was far more complicated than that. James Wilson, one of the leading delegates who represented Pennsylvania, said this was the toughest problem the framers of the Constitution had to face. And so they had to balance multiple factors. And I think it would be a good idea, Kim, if we go over these factors so people have a concept for how complicated this decision was.
SPEAKER 16 :
Yes. And how long did it take for them to hash this out, Rob Nielsen?
SPEAKER 12 :
This went over actually a period of months. I mean they worked on other things too, right? But they would talk about it. They would put it down. They submitted it to a committee. They would discuss it again, just trying to work this through because, again, they’re not balancing just two factors, maybe popularity versus concentration of popularity like a lot of people think. They were balancing about nine of them. And they wanted to come up with the best possible process that took all of this into account. So maybe it would be a good idea to go through some of those if we have time.
SPEAKER 16 :
Yeah, let’s definitely do that. And Rob, what I find interesting is that they sat down and they really tried to look at the long-term consequences of what their decisions would be. I think that is missing a lot now by those that are in elected office at the local, the county, the state, and the national level. And I think that is missing quite often.
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Well, let me take that observation and use one example, okay? If you have a straight popular vote system where a plurality of the people elect the president, as is proposed by the National Popular Vote Compact, which the legislature of Colorado foolishly adopted in 2019, you would have a system whereby somebody could be elected with 36% of the vote. or 25% of the vote. And this is not a hypothesis. This actually happens in the seven countries, all third world countries that have direct popular vote elections. And so a presidential candidate could win with a relatively small part of the vote. It might be concentrated in one region of the country, and that could lead to breakup of the country itself. Again, if you look at the popular vote in states that follow that system, like Mexico, you’ll see that the north votes one way and the center votes one way and the south votes one way and the winner, not this past election, but in many elections, the winner wins with 36%. And that is a recipe for split up. There has been one time when the Electoral College failed to accomplish its mission in of assuring that the winner was widely popular across many regions of the country. And that one time when the Electoral College failed was in 1860, when Abe Lincoln, and I’m saying he’s one of my favorite presidents, so I’m not criticizing Abe, but Abe Lincoln won the election with only 39% of the popular vote, and it was concentrated in the North and the West. What happened? The country split up. Fortunately, that’s been the only failure in that regard of the Electoral College in the 51 elections we’ve had. But that shows you the danger of simply electing a president by a plurality. The Electoral College, two of the factors that the founders thought was so important was, number one, you have to make sure that whoever is elected is widely popular. I mean, not somebody who gets… You know, 23% of the vote, like the president of the Philippines did a few years ago using a strict plurality system. It’s got to be somebody who’s widely popular. It may not be the most popular person in the country, but he’s got to have support of, let’s say, over 40% of the people, like Woodrow Wilson and Bill Clinton did in their elections, or Donald Trump in his first election. So you’ve got to have this wide popularity. And secondly, the popularity cannot be sectional. It’s got to be spread across the country. If you look at the very few elections, only about 8% of our elections where the popular vote winner did not win the electoral college, it was because the popular vote winner was a sectional candidate who rolled up large majorities in isolated parts of the country but was not widely popular across the country. A good example of that was Grover Cleveland in 1888. And another example of that was Hillary Clinton in 2016. Even though each candidate very narrowly won the popular vote, they did it by piling up majorities in isolated portions of the country. And that is something that the The Electoral College is designed to prevent somebody who does that from winning because of the need for wide acceptability across all parts of the country and the need to avoid sexual breakup. So those are only two of the factors that the founders had to consider in putting together this complicated presidential election system.
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Okay, so let’s keep that as a cliffhanger. You said that there’s nine different factors that they were considering. And so let’s go to break. When we come back, we’ll continue the discussion with Rob Nadelson regarding his piece, The Electoral College in Context. And you can find this at the Independence Institute. It’s been published there. A very, very interesting piece. And these are really important discussions. We have them because of our sponsors. And one of those is Karen Levine.
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Welcome back to The Kim Munson Show. Check out our website. That is KimMunson.com. Sign up for our weekly email newsletter. You can email me at Kim at KimMunson.com as well. Thank you to all of you who support us. We’re an independent voice and we search for truth and clarity by looking at these issues through the lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom. If something’s a good idea, you should not have to force people to do it. And do check out the Center for American Values. It’s located in Pueblo, Colorado on the beautiful Riverwalk. And they do several things. One, the Portraits of Valor of our Medal of Honor recipients, or many of our Medal of Honor recipients, is really inspiring. We can use a little inspiration these days. And so be sure and check out their website to get all their information. That is AmericanValueCenter.org. AmericanValueCenter.org. On the line with me is Rob Nadelson. He is the author of the book, The Original Constitution, What It Actually Said and Meant. He has been a constitutional law professor. Some of his writings have been cited by courts all the way up to the Supreme Court. So he is an expert on all this. We’re talking about the Electoral College and this piece that was published November 5th, 2024 at the Independence Institute, the Electoral College in Context. We’re talking about the factors that the founders considered as they were coming up with the way to elect the president. So you said there’s nine factors. What’s the next one, Rob Nadelson?
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Well, again, for those who may have just tuned in, the point of the article is that discussions of the Electoral College tend to be oversimplified. We tend to look at the Electoral College in isolation when it’s really one of four separate steps in a very complicated presidential election system. And we also tend to just concentrate on one or two factors when the founders had to consider, as you just said, about nine of them. And we talked about two of them. One is the need for any winning candidate to have wide support across the entire country, not just in particular regions, and wide support generally, a high level generally. The next factor was the issue of competence. If the founders – were trying to establish a unitary executive, that is to say, an executive branch with one person at the top, they had to devise a system that would heighten the chances that the chief executive would be competent. One of the problems that they had seen in monarchies, especially hereditary monarchies, is that someone would become king who was totally unequipped for the job. So it’s critical to develop a process that had a high probability of producing somebody who could do the job. And one key to doing this is to assure that at least some steps in this four-step process occur at the state level, not at the federal level. So we vote for our presidential electors at the state level, and then the presidential electors in turn vote not in some central location. The electoral college never comes together in any one location. The presidential electors vote in their own state capitals. So the 10 Colorado electors vote in Denver. They don’t vote in Washington, D.C., The idea of keeping this a state-based process is partly to assure that candidates from that state are well-known. And that also people who are favorite sons from the state, who are outstanding leaders of the state, have some chance of winning in presidential elections. That it’s not all national figures that get elected. And when you think about it, we do, in fact, often elect state figures, state governors, for example. One just died, Jimmy Carter. The process generally has been very successful in turning out competent chief executives. We may not like what the president does. We may loathe what the president does. But by and large, the people have had. The possession of the executive office had been competent individuals. There have been a few exceptions, and I would argue that the current incumbent is a tragic exception. But by and large, we’ve done a lot better than a lot of other governments have done in producing presidents who have the ability to do the job.
SPEAKER 16 :
So, Rob, a question came in on the text line and regarding competency, and that is Biden says now that Democrats have publicly and publicly acknowledged that Biden has dementia. And when he took office in 2020, how is any of this stuff, any of these executive orders that are actually probably being pushed through by those controlling him? How are these legal?
SPEAKER 12 :
And I think that’s a really good question. It’s a question, but it’s not what I’m addressing today, really. I mean, the short answer is they are legal. The courts are going to determine them legal. President Biden has not been judicially declared incompetent. We just know we have a very sad situation. We had one before, by the way, the last year of Woodrow Wilson’s term. He had suffered a stroke and was rendered incompetent. But remember, I’m not dealing with exceptions here. I’m dealing with the overall record. The overall record of producing competent chief executives is far better than in many other governments. Related to that is the belief among the founders that the executive had to be independent. In other words, he had to be free to make his own decisions, not dependent like the prime minister of Britain on parliament, okay? It had to be an independent executive branch. That meant that certain types of election were out. Like early on, the framers considered, well, maybe the president should be elected by Congress because Congress will know who’s competent. They’ll know who’s good. And so he should be elected by Congress. One of the problems with that is that if Congress elects the president, the president then becomes a creature of Congress unless you give the president only one term and he doesn’t fear for reelection. And so the initial plan was, oh, gee, you know, well, let’s give him a seven-year term. But that creates problems with the democratic ideal. You want to be able to people to rotate their chief executives more than that. You don’t want them stuck for seven years with a bad chief executive. And so that meant that determination by Congress was out. It was also a proposal of choosing the president by having an election among the state governors. Same problem. That could render the president dependent upon the states. So the ultimate system that they developed, which was one in which there was an election by a temporary body, that is to say the electoral college, the electors vote and then they disband and that’s the end. And you don’t have a situation where the president is dependent upon some standing council and afraid to make decisions that might displease them. So you see how this is beginning to shape up. You’ve got a system that, number one, assures that the successful candidate is very popular. Number two, that his popularity extends throughout the country. Number three, creates a high probability that he’s competent. And number four, assures that the president is independent of other branches of government. And the current system is designed to accomplish all of those. But those are only four of the factors. There are even more later on.
SPEAKER 16 :
Okay, so let’s go to – well, I think you’ll probably address this, but how are these electors selected?
SPEAKER 12 :
Well, that’s an interesting question. The Constitution says – and this is an example of how it’s a state-based, decentralized process – And to address it, let me mention a fifth factor. And the fifth factor is avoiding what the founders would have called cabal corruption, avoiding a situation where a few people in Washington, D.C., come together and decide to be president. So that’s the fifth factor. And the way the founders did that is making this a state-based process. So what the Constitution says is, is that the state legislatures will decide how each state’s electors are chosen. Each state gets a number of electors equal to the total number of representatives and senators. So Colorado has eight representatives, two senators, we get 10 electors. But how they’re chosen is up to the state legislature. Early on in the republic, State legislatures experimented with different ways of choosing electors. Some of the state legislatures simply chose the electors themselves. In those days, that was pretty democratic because state legislatures tended to serve one-year terms or even less, and they were elected in very small districts. In other places, they just handed the job over to the people. They said, well, whoever you choose, your slate of electors will go on to choose the president. Some, like Massachusetts, chose hybrid systems. But at the founding, the framers and other leading founders predicted that probably ultimately all the states would turn the job over to the people. And that is what all the states have done. In every state, the popular election held on the first Tuesday after the first Monday decides who’s going to be the electors from that state. In theory, state legislature could take back the task itself, and under certain circumstances, it might be a good idea to do that, emergency circumstances. But generally speaking, the people elect the electors in every single state according to somewhat varying formulae.
SPEAKER 16 :
But I don’t ever recall voting for the elector, the person. How are they selected here in Colorado?
SPEAKER 12 :
Well, they’re selected by parties that put up slates, right? So a party will put up a slate of 10 electors. And so when you – as I recall my Colorado ballot, it says I’m voting for electors for president but doesn’t identify their name. In some states, they don’t even say that. They just put the name of the presidential candidate. And in other states, they actually put the names of the electors. So that, again, will vary state by state. The other advantage of this, remember that the first factor is assuring wide popularity. Since the people vote on electors, this gives the people a kind of direct role in the process that they wouldn’t have, for example, if the president were chosen by Congress.
SPEAKER 16 :
OK, so but so, for example, did the Republican Party, though, the actual people that will that are electors here in Colorado?
SPEAKER 12 :
Yes. Since the Republican Party. Yeah. Yeah. OK. They will be chosen by the Republican Party. Yeah.
SPEAKER 16 :
OK, let’s see. Let’s go ahead and get to the sixth factor. Let’s let’s unpack that one.
SPEAKER 12 :
Okay. Well, I mentioned that one of the things that they wanted to avoid was cabal, you know, the smoke-filled room that decides who the president’s going to be. But, you know, the presidential electoral system may have saved us from a president by cabal. Kamala Harris, for example, was chosen by a small group of kingmakers. And fortunately, our presidential election system rejected a candidate chosen that way. Closely related to that is the sixth factor, and that is foreign influence. We don’t even think about this today, or very rarely think about it, except in the Russia collusion hoax. But the founders recognized there was a real danger of genuine foreign manipulation in our elections today. unless they developed a system to prevent it. So having a system whereby the people vote in their respective states and then the electors vote in their respective states, that makes it extremely difficult for some agent from France to bribe all the electors to try to get the person that he wants chosen president. You know, back when the When state legislatures still chose U.S. senators, one of the problems they had was bribery. Most of the state legislatures are not terribly large bodies, and it was possible by putting well-placed bribes to get a favored candidate elected U.S. senator. That’s not possible under the U.S. electoral system because the people as a whole – and I realize the people can be influenced and bribed in a sense, but not nearly as easily. But the people as a whole choose electors, and then the electoral college, which is a large body, goes on to choose the president, at least the provisional presidential candidate. And so – And so this prevents foreign influence. Again, we don’t even really think about it in most elections because the system has been so successful in preventing it.
SPEAKER 16 :
So the question, though, is we continue to see reports that China is influential in some of these elections. What would you say to that, Rob Nielsen?
SPEAKER 12 :
It’s possible that China is trying. The point is that our current system of presidential system is for elections, it just makes it very, very difficult for a foreign power to have a significant influence. And I don’t know of any election, the entire 51 that held, in which a foreign power has a significant influence.
SPEAKER 16 :
Oh, fascinating. And it’s so interesting that they were so intelligent and so forward-thinking.
SPEAKER 12 :
They were intelligent. They were intelligent. They also were extremely diligent. They’re talking about the framers here of the Constitution. They worked very, very hard. They also had had extremely valuable experience. I mean, these were not people like Chuck Schumer, who became 26 or whatever and has never done anything else. These are people who had participated in a wide range of spheres of life. And they also were very conscientious. about studying how other Republican guys had worked. John Adams was in France at the time, but he put together an encyclopedia of Republican governments throughout history. The first volume of that three-volume encyclopedia circulated at the Constitutional Convention. So they could study that and see what the government of the different Swiss cantons was like, and what the government of Poland was like, and what the government of Rome had been like. And so James Madison, who was, of course, at the convention, put together a great deal of it on ancient republics. One of the complicating factors, Kim, that the founders had to deal with, though, which I have not mentioned, is that setting up was not a republic. In other words, it was not going to be a single government like the government of Rome was, at least in name. It was going to be a federation of states. And that meant that that compounded the difficulty. So that meant that they had to consider a seventh factor, the states into the process. We let them participate. OK, we’re going to do that.
SPEAKER 16 :
Let’s have that as our cliffhanger there, because that is so important. Talking with Rob Nadelson about the Electoral College. This piece was published at the Independence Institute, the Electoral College in Context, and it was published November 5th, 2024. And I am learning so much about this. And this is so important. And we have these discussions because of our sponsors and for everything mortgages. Reach out to Lorne Levy.
SPEAKER 08 :
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SPEAKER 09 :
You’d like to get in touch with one of the sponsors of The Kim Munson Show, but you can’t remember their phone contact or website information. Find a full list of advertising partners on Kim’s website, kimmunson.com. That’s Kim, M-O-N-S-O-N dot com.
SPEAKER 08 :
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SPEAKER 16 :
Back to the Kim Munson. Be sure and check out our website. That is Kim Munson, M-O-N-S-O-N dot com. Sign up for our weekly email newsletter. You can email me at Kim at Kim Munson dot com as well. Thank you to all of you who support us. We’re an independent voice. We search for truth and clarity as we look at these issues through the lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom. Something’s a good idea. You should not have to force people to do it. The text line is 720-650-647. Do check out the USMC Memorial Foundation. Make a contribution. Help them as they are raising the money for the remodel of the official Marine Memorial, which is located right here in Colorado. You can see their plans by going to usmcmemorialfoundation.org. We are talking with Rob Nadelson. He is the author of the book, The Original Constitution, What It Actually Said and Meant. He’s an expert on the Constitution. He had been a constitutional law professor up in Montana, and many of his books, writings have been cited by different courts all the way up to the Supreme Court. So, Rob Nadelson, we’re talking about the framers, the things that they were concerned about. So the next thing is they wanted to try to figure out how to include the states in this process of selecting the president.
SPEAKER 12 :
Yeah. Again, for those who might have just tuned in, I’ve been reviewing the Electoral College in the context The point that the reasons for this system are far more complicated than opponents of the Electoral College claim or that even many advocates of the Electoral College claim. We’ve been going through factors that the founders considered. And the latest was the idea that the states, as part of a federal system, needed to participate in the process and to give them a buy-in, a stake in the process, so they didn’t break away. Another factor is a complement to that, which is we also have to give Congress a buy-in of the process. Congress has to have a role so that Congress feels included as well. At the state level, we’ve seen that electors are elected at the state level, that electors vote for president in their state capitals. But then Congress plays a role, and that’s what’s going to happen today of Congress. actually certifies the electoral vote that’s come in from the states. Another role, too, and this is critically important. Initial factors I mentioned was the need to assure wide popularity, high levels of popularity across the country. May not be the most popular, had to have somebody want to bear plurality in the electoral college, but did not get a majority. in the electoral college, so that a person carried 10 states, let’s say, and that was enough. That was more than any other candidate, but it was still only 10 states. If a candidate does not get a majority in the electoral college, then you have a runoff election. That runoff election occurs in the House of Representatives for the president. There’s a requirement that two-thirds of the states be represented. that the states vote by state delegation with each state getting one vote, so all of Colorado’s eight representatives would cast one vote for Colorado. And then it requires a majority in that runoff to win. There’s a similar runoff for the vice president in the Senate, where the winning candidate has to get a majority of the Senate to win. Now, fortunately, No winner has failed to get a majority in the Electoral College since 1824. But the prospect, the mere prospect that if you don’t get a majority in the Electoral College, you’re going to have to go to the House of Representatives and win there, that tends to discourage candidates who only have regional pockets of support. And it tends to assure that People who do run for president are people who are widely popular. So you see this runoff mechanism serving two purposes. It’s a way of involving potentially in the process, but it’s also a way of assuring that if the winner to get a majority in the electoral college, well, that’s not going to be enough. And the person is going to have to win Congress as well.
SPEAKER 16 :
Okay, and so that’s the nine working with as they were.
SPEAKER 12 :
Yeah, there’s one other, Kim, I just mentioned, and it overlaps in the others. And that is assuring what the political scientists call legitimacy. That is assuring the public acceptance of the results. When we have a process that involves the states, it involves the federal government, it involves the people, it assures widespread popularity. It protects against foreign influence. It protects against conspiracies or cabals. And so we have a process like that. That leads to a general acceptance. of the winning candidate. It’s broken down a little bit recently with the growth of the hard left in America, just as it broke down before the Civil War. But by and large, I’ll try in four years, rather than taking up arms and beginning a war.
SPEAKER 16 :
Okay, we have one minute left. This has been so informative, Rob Nadelson. How would you like to wrap this up?
SPEAKER 12 :
Well, those who would like to see the article, it’s at the Independence Institute website. That’s institute.org. Independence Institute is all one word. Also, of course, on Amazon or barnesandnoble.com, you can pick up my book. the original Constitution, what it actually said meant. Also, at the Independence Institute website are all my scholarly articles. So if you’re really a constitutional wonk, you can investigate all kinds of things there, because there’s a lot on that website now.
SPEAKER 16 :
Well, it’s a great body of work, and this is a really important piece. I would highly recommend the election or the electoral certified that it would be good for people to check this out. The Electoral College in Context at the Independence Institute dot org so that you can talk with your friends and your family about this. It’s important that we understand that. Rob Nadelson, I so appreciate you going through this with us. Thank you.
SPEAKER 12 :
I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER 16 :
And our quote for the end of the show is from James Monroe. He said, there is a price tag on human liberty. That price is the willingness to assume the responsibilities of being free men. Price is a personal matter with each of us. Today, be grateful. Read great books. Think good thoughts. Listen to beautiful music. Communicate and listen well. Live honestly and authentically. Strive for high ideals. And like Superman, stand for truth, justice, and the American way. My friends, you are not alone. God bless you. God bless America. Stay true. But tell them if I don’t serve.
SPEAKER 06 :
The views and opinions expressed on KLZ 560 are those of the speaker, commentators, hosts, their guests, and callers. They are not necessarily the views and opinions of Crawford Broadcasting or KLZ management, employees, associates, or advertisers. KLZ 560 is a Crawford Broadcasting God and country station.
SPEAKER 10 :
It’s the Kim Munson Show, analyzing the most important stories.
SPEAKER 16 :
The socialization of transportation and water, what it means is it through rules and regulation.
SPEAKER 10 :
The latest in politics and world affairs.
SPEAKER 16 :
Partisanship and non-partisanship, it’s actually tapping down the truth.
SPEAKER 10 :
Today’s current opinions and ideas.
SPEAKER 16 :
In the battle of ideas, mistruths and myths in a world of hurt.
SPEAKER 10 :
Is it freedom or is it force? Let’s have a conversation.
SPEAKER 16 :
Indeed. Hour number two of the Kim Munson Show. Thank you so much for joining us. You each are treasured. You have purpose. Today’s drive for excellence to heart, your soul, your mind, and your body. My friends, we were made for this moment in history. Thank you to the team. That’s Luke, Rachel, Echo, Charlie, Mike, all the people broadcasting. Monday, producer Joe. Hour one was informative, wasn’t it?
SPEAKER 15 :
Morning, and yes, it was. There wasn’t that much thought put into it.
SPEAKER 16 :
Yeah, our framers were very, very wise. One of our listeners, Mary, said that our framers truly were time travelers. And she’s right because they studied history. And that’s one of the reasons why I’ve incorporated this history into the show, which we talk about, number one, is that we need to realize it’s not just us right now, just so self-focused, that there were those before us and those that we have a responsibility for in the future. And so that’s why we do all this. So check out the website. That is kimmunson.com. Sign up for our weekly email newsletter. You’ll get first look at our upcoming guests as well as our most recent essays. You can email me at kim at kimmunson.com. And thank you to all of you who support us. And the show is live 6 to 8 a.m. Monday through Friday. The first hour is rebroadcast. 1 to 2 in the afternoon, the second hour, 10 to 11 in the evening. That’s on all KLZ platforms, which is KLZ 560 AM, KLZ 100.7 FM, the KLZ website, and the KLZ app. And we search for truth and clarity on these issues by looking at these different issues through the lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom. If something’s a good idea, you should not have to force people to do it. And the legislature here in Colorado will convene on Wednesday. And it’ll be fasten your seatbelts as far as we’ll have to watch this legislation. One of the best ways to do that is to join the Colorado Union of Taxpayers. And that website is, let’s see, coloradotaxpayer.org. And it’s just $25 a year. So basically for $2.08 a month, you are going to receive hours of volunteer time of our volunteers who have gone through and watched legislation and watching out for you, the taxpayer, property rights, school choice, TABOR, we would really appreciate your support. And you will get the email that we send out to the legislators and the governor each week regarding legislation that we take a position on. It is one of the ways that you can be very, very informed. And so I want to say thank you to this team, Steve Dorman, Greg Golianski, Russ Haas, Bill Hamill, Rob Knuth, John Nelson, Wendy Warner, Marty Nielsen, Ramey Johnson, and Mary Jansen. And we will have our board meeting next Monday. And very pleased that Dave Evans and Corey Onizorg have agreed to come onto the board. We’ll have to vote to make that official, but we’re very excited about that. Our word of the day is proselyte, and it is spelled, let me get it here for you, P-R-O-S-E-L-Y-T-E. And it could be a new convert to a doctrine or religion. Number two, a new convert, especially to some religion or religious sect or to some particular opinion system or party. And the challenge is to use that in a sentence today. And there are those that I have talked with that have really become, I would say, proselytes of the American idea today. as they have understood and watched what has happened under the old Biden-Harris administration and what’s the decisions that have really been made that have put us in a very dangerous position. And so we have new proselytes to this whole American idea. And again, your challenge is to use that in a sentence. And our quote of the day is from James Monroe. He was born in 1758. He died July 4, 1831. I find that so interesting that it was on Independence Day. He’s a founding father. He was our fifth president, and he was the last founding father to serve as president. And he said this, If it was wise, manly, and patriotic for us to establish a free government, it is equally wise to attend to the necessary means of its preservation. And that’s where we come in, my friends. We are made for this time now. to make sure that we pass on this free government, this freedom to our next generation. That’s why today is important. Today, the Electoral College results are to be certified by a joint session of Congress, July 6th. And let’s see if… Well, let’s see. Friday, Mike Johnson was elected for his second term as Speaker of the House in Douglas County. John Carson was selected to fill the vacancy of Senate District 30. That seat mentioned this in the first hour. The Biden White House is now admitting that China can close down our ports and our power grid. And then a couple of other things. The 12 days of Christmas are December 25th through January 5th. And January 6th is Epiphany. That is today. And Yvonne said that this is the Three Magi King’s Day, which is huge in Spain and Latin America as the Three Magi leave gifts for children in their shoes. And so try to stay informed on our Christian calendar as well. These are important discussions that we have, and I’m blessed to work with amazing people, and I know each and every one of my sponsors personally. And I’m talking with Roger Mangan with the Roger Mangan State Farm Insurance team. And granted, it’s January, Roger, but hail season is right around the corner and Colorado is one of the hail capitals of the world.
SPEAKER 11 :
Yeah, you know, it is. And I think I’ve said this on the show before, but there’s probably one other place in the world that has more hail than Colorado. Texas and Colorado, that would be the Himalayas where very few people live and no one really has property damage claims around the Himalaya Mountains. So, yeah, it’s an issue. Along with hurricanes and wildfires, hail in Colorado is probably the biggest loss that we have to absorb. So insurance companies have solutions to… substantiate their ability to pay claims. Of course, price increases you’ve seen over the last four years, they’ve gone through the roof. The average premium on a homeowner’s policy now runs about $2,500 a year. Five years ago, it was about $1,500 a year. So it has taken substantial hits as a result of hail. So other than increasing prices, insurance companies, particularly State Farm, has identified roofing materials that are hail-resistant impact for IRR, impact-resistant roofs, IRR. So if you have had a loss and you’ve had a new roof put up, and the insurance company that you’re with may not have a discount, or if they have a discount, it may not be substantial. So if you took, let’s say, an average premium of $2,000 a year… with State Farm, and we gave you a 30% discount, which we do, so that’s $600 that you’re saving every year for the life of that policy with State Farm. That is a tremendous feather in your cap and a savings, of course, for you. So what I would suggest you do, if you have a neighbor and they had a rough put on and you talk to them and they say, yeah, I got a great discount and I’m with State Farm. And you’re with maybe, I’m not sure, AAA, Allstate, Costco, whoever you might be insured with. you would want to maybe give us a call and we would be able to give you a quote. And if you have an impact-resistant roof that was put on and you’re not getting the full discount, I would suggest you protect your pocketbook and make a call and see if we can help you. 303-795-8855.
SPEAKER 16 :
So you’re saying, would you have to have this impact-resistant roof? Is that what you get the discount on? Yes. Okay. And so if you have that, then give you a call at 303-795-8855. It doesn’t cost anything.
SPEAKER 11 :
Nope, not at all. And if you could tell us the material that was put on, and you would know what that was because you paid a bill to a roofer. So you could save potentially save big money. Yeah, it’s big money. It’s big money.
SPEAKER 16 :
Okay, well, and all you have to do is make a phone call. So that number is 303-795-8855. Like a good neighbor, the Roger Mangan team is there.
SPEAKER 02 :
So I switched my insurance to the Roger Mangan State Farm Insurance Agency. Get this, I actually talked to Roger Mangan, who has been helping people with their insurance coverage in our community for 47 years. He helped me create a State Farm personalized price insurance plan for my home and auto and explained affordable options. For personalized service and peace of mind that you are working with a team that cares about you and your family, call Roger Mangin now at 303-795-8855. Kim highly recommends the Roger Mangin State Farm Insurance Team. Again, that number is 303-795-8855.
SPEAKER 01 :
With the limited number of homes in the Colorado Front Range market, Karen Levine can help you achieve your home buying or selling vision. Karen has the right connections, technology, and strategies to help you buy or sell your home or to purchase a new build. Whether you’re feeling overwhelmed or want someone to take the wheel, or you just need a second opinion, you can rest assured that RE-MAX realtor Karen Levine Call Karen Levine at 303-877-7516. Karen is the trusted professional who strives for excellence. That number is 303-877-7516.
SPEAKER 09 :
You’d like to get in touch with one of the sponsors of The Kim Munson Show, but you can’t remember their phone contact or website information. Find a full list of advertising partners on Kim’s website, kimmunson.com. That’s Kim, M-O-N-S-O-N dot com.
SPEAKER 16 :
And welcome back to the Kim Munson Show. Be sure and check out our website. That is KimMunson, M-O-N-S-O-N.com. Sign up for our weekly email newsletter. You can email me at Kim at KimMunson.com as well. Thank you to all of you who support us. We’re an independent voice and we search for truth and clarity by looking at these issues through the lens of freedom versus force. Force versus freedom is something’s a good idea. You should not have to force people to do it. I wanted to say thank you to Laramie Energy for their gold sponsorship of the show. It is reliable, efficient, affordable, and and abundant energy from oil, natural gas, and coal that powers our lives and fuels our hopes and dreams. Very pleased to have on the line with me, Rebecca Lavrenz. She is known as the praying grandma, and she was in Washington, D.C., January 6th, 2021. And she’s had quite a story of what happened. She’d gone to, she felt a calling that she should go to Washington, D.C. to pray for our country. And Rebecca Lavrenz, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER 17 :
Well, thank you, Kim. I’m so glad that you invited me. It’s an honor to be on your show.
SPEAKER 16 :
Thank you. Well, it’s very timely. You were in Washington, D.C. four years ago, and you’ve told your story on the show before. But for those that have not heard it, let’s start at the beginning. You decided to go to Washington, D.C. You got in your car, drove across the country. And so set this up for us, Rebecca.
SPEAKER 17 :
Okay. Well, I had really no intention of going to the rally other than my son a few days before asked if I had thought about it and I had planned. He says, well, I think you need to pray about it. So I did. And I felt like God just put it on my heart that it was a, I was like called to go to pray. And so I fasted and prayed, drove the 25 hours cause I wouldn’t fly because I would not wear a mask, got to Washington to see on the night of the 25th. And, um, After being tired driving all that day, I went to where I was staying. I was staying at where my daughters worked in D.C., and so she had a room about several blocks from the Capitol. So I stayed there that night, got up in the morning, and just felt a real… Peace in my heart and thankfulness and gratitude for our country. And I just felt I needed to stand up. I wasn’t angry other than I was upset that nobody was listening to us regarding the election. So I walked over there that day. Did not feel led to go to the Ellipse. I ended up being on the east side of the Capitol, which is across from the Supreme Court. And lots of people there that were just walking around very peaceful. Seemed like they were, you know, just in a really… patriotic, what should I say, and just… very honest appearing, you know what I’m saying? I guess I’m trying to search for the right words right now, but I mean, they were very peaceful and they loved our country. You could tell that the way they were dressed, there was no violence that I saw at that point at all. And I just saw that people were there to just stand up and really exercise our first amendment rights. So I knew I was there to pray, but also to stand up for our first amendment, which says that we have a right to address the government for redress of grievances and And that’s what I felt I was there for. And so I went there, just was praying quietly by myself, talked to a few people. Then after I got there, like about 9.30 or 10, I guess it was. And then after being there a little while, I think it was about 11.30, I looked to the left of my – and there was a platform where people were worshiping, singing songs, and I saw that they were – There were some chairs over there. I said, I thought, I’ll just go over there, walk over there and see what’s going on. Well, I didn’t get quite to the grassy area. It’s called the Egg. If you’re at the Capitol, you know anything about the Capitol. I got there. And before I got even on the grassy area, the Spirit of God, God’s presence just hit me like, just like I couldn’t even stand up. It was so strong. I fell down. just sat on the ground because I couldn’t even hardly stand up. It was so heavy on me, and I just started weeping, and I didn’t know what I was praying, but it lasted for about 10 minutes, and then it lifted, and then I walked over, and something came over me that I realized later that this is what I was praying, was that I was praying for our country, but also praying the covenant, and that we have with God for our country. And that’s what I felt led to pray at that platform. There are people praying at the bottom of the platform. I asked if I could use the microphone, and I just prayed the 1620 Mayflower Compact, which is considered a covenant, which says that this country would be a country that would give glory to God and advance the Christian faith. And that’s all I just really prayed. And I felt like I did what God had been stirring in my heart during that time of prayer or weeping, crying for my country, that that’s what was important on God’s heart. And that’s the way I’ve kind of lived my life. Whatever is important on God’s heart, I sought to know God so I could do what he wanted me to do. So after that was over, I walked back to where I was standing right in front of the barricades, right in front of the Columbus doors on the east side. And I just felt like God had really positioned me there. So I was standing there, a bunch of people. A gentleman had a speaker where he was broadcasting President Trump’s speech, so I didn’t have to walk over there anyway. And so I heard a lot of it. And then there were people that were just singing patriotic songs. We were shouting, not yelling, but just saying things like, You know, patriotic songs, you know, this is our house. We, you know, things like that. Just very calm. It wasn’t disturbing at all. And then there were some people that were, you know, not happy with what they were hearing that day. Vice President Pence was not going to certify or was going to certify the votes, and we thought that we should be heard. And, of course, there were barricades, and I didn’t push anything down, but I felt like God was saying in my heart that if those Um, barricades come down that he wanted me and the doors open to the, to the Capitol building that I was supposed to carry his presence in. And I thought, okay, if that’s what you’re saying, I was kind of weighing it in my heart and praying about it. And then after a little bit, they did come down. I walked up to the Capitol with everybody else. There were quite a few of us. Obviously, everybody’s probably seen those videos. Walked up, stood on one of the platforms beside the front there on those doors, and I just felt a stirring in my heart that if they opened, I would go in. After a little bit, around 2.30 or so, they did open. I went in with a bunch of people, was in the Capitol building for about 10 minutes, did not touch anything, stayed within the barricades, did not talk to anybody. I Other than I did look at and talk briefly, I guess, to the police officer, which I barely remembered, but it was on the video footage. And nobody ever told me to leave. I just felt when I got in the building that. again, I felt this strong presence of God, and I just felt so strongly that I was standing for our country, and standing, I felt in my thoughts, I got this thought, I will not let my country go down to the ideologies of Marxism and socialism, not on my watch. I saw the, in my mind’s eye, I saw the picture of my three youngest grandchildren, who were seven, five, and three at the time, and I knew that I was there just to carry God’s presence in. I walked around for a And then they turned around and they said that we’re going to leave the building because there’s the congressmen have already left. So there’s no point in us going any further, which made sense because that’s what we as a body, I felt not having really talked to a lot of any people near me. But that’s what we were doing, standing up for our First Amendment rights. And so we walked out. And I thought that was the end of it. I thought everything was over. My daughter called me later and said, Mom, do you know that you could probably be arrested for going in the building? And I said, no, I really didn’t think I would. And so I did pray about it. I felt God said, no, you there on basically an assignment, ambassador assignment from the kingdom of heaven to carry out his will for our country. And so I didn’t really think anything more about it until I did get home and I saw that people were being charged and arrested. And I thought, well, that wouldn’t happen to me because I didn’t do anything violent. I didn’t push the barriers over or anything like that. And so I was very surprised when. Several months later, I got a knock on the door. So that’s my first part of the story, Kim.
SPEAKER 16 :
Okay. Well, and just a couple of questions. Do you remember how the barricades came down when you were there? Do you recall what happened?
SPEAKER 17 :
Well, that was a big, long thing during my trial. Like the prosecution said I was part of pushing them over, but I didn’t even touch the barriers. I don’t know for sure how they came down. I believe that the government actually did take them away. I can’t, you know, that’s, yeah, it’s really a debate because I really don’t. They had enough force and they had a badge. If they were well-equipped, they could have stopped us, in my opinion. That’s why I believe it was an entrapment, and they were part of it. And, I mean, there was so much confusion around the whole situation when that all happened. And, you know, the video footage does say there was so much confusion, but I really don’t think that we actually did push them over.
SPEAKER 16 :
Okay, so that’s the first question. What about the doors opening? Do you recall how the doors opened?
SPEAKER 17 :
No, I really don’t know that either, because where I was standing, there was a crowd of people, and I’m not 6’4″, or anything like that, I’m 5’4″, and I couldn’t see about how that actually opened. There have been video footage at my trial, or there was a testimony where somebody on that side had talked to a police officer, and actually fist-bumped him when they got the doors open, and so… I don’t know what exactly happened. I can’t testify to that or say how they opened. I really don’t know, Kim. Okay.
SPEAKER 16 :
But you did not actively push any barrier over. The doors opened. You walked in. You were in the Capitol for 10 minutes. I would like to make the point that the Capitol is supposed to be known as the people’s house. Right. Right. And that’s exactly right, Kim. And when you were in the Capitol, did you see any of the people that you were with, any violence or anything while you were in the Capitol for those 10 minutes?
SPEAKER 17 :
No, I did not see any violence. In fact, I mean, the things when I was in the rotunda, I did have. There were just people that were just walking around, looking around and wanting to make our way towards where the congressmen were. But I did not see any violence at all. I really didn’t. The prosecution tries to tell me that I did, but they’re not seeing through my eyes. They’re seeing the whole picture with a video camera. With a video camera that’s in the room, but I didn’t. I had to see through my eyes, and I did not see. In fact, I did hear someone in the back room say, don’t do any damage to the building. And I really believe the intention of the people that were around me was just to be peaceful. There was no… You know, we are we’re not insurrectionists. We weren’t trying to overthrow the government or anything like that. We just wanted to be heard. And as citizens of the United States of America, and if we know the Constitution, we have a right to that. And exactly like you said, this is our house and we should have a right to be in there. And I believe I believe personally at that time, Kim, in my opinion. what I believed in my heart when I was there that day was, Oh, they’re, they do are, you know, somebody in that who has authority is what I thought is opening the doors for us because they understand that we have a right to be there. And that’s what I thought in my, you know, whether it was naivety or whatever, it was what I believed in my heart that because I didn’t think we had the power to overthrow the, the, the police or the authorities that were there, they were, stood there. They were going backwards when we were going for them. But it wasn’t because we were being forceful. And I want to just remind you that I was on the east side of the Capitol versus the… There was some violence on that side. It was more to one side of me. It wasn’t right in front of me or anything like that that I could see. So… It was a lot different than on the other, on the west side.
SPEAKER 16 :
On the other side. Yeah, on the other side, for sure. I’m talking with Rebecca LaVren. She’s known as the praying grandma. She had decided to drive across the country 25 hours, got to Washington, D.C. on the 5th, went to the Capitol, was outside on January 6th. And we’re talking about her story. And we will continue the discussion on this when we come back. The show comes to you because of our sponsors. And a sponsor that is a great protein source for your diet and tastes really good is Lavaca Meat Company.
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SPEAKER 16 :
Welcome back to The Kim Munson Show. Be sure and check out our website. That is Kim Munson, M-O-N-S-O-N.com. Sign up for our weekly email newsletter. You can email me at Kim at KimMunson.com as well. Thank you to all of you who support us. We’re an independent voice. We search for truth and clarity by looking at these issues through the lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom. If something’s a good idea, you should not have to force people to do it. Do check out the USMC Memorial Foundation’s website. That is usmcmemorialfoundation.org. And you can see the plans that Paula Sarles and her team have been working on to remodel and refurbish the Marine Memorial. It was dedicated in 1977. The official memorial is right here in Colorado. We need to make sure that we remember and honor those that have given their lives or been willing to give their lives for our country. and for our liberty. And one way to do that is to support the USMC Memorial Foundation. I’m talking with Rebecca Lovren. She is known as the praying grandma and she drove to Washington DC so that she could pray for our country on January 6th, 2021. And she did end up spending 10 minutes in the Capitol And that changed her life because a few months later she got a knock on the door. So what happened after that, Rebecca?
SPEAKER 17 :
Well, I got a knock on the door. It was around April 20th, around something around there. I was in the kitchen baking a cake for my son for his birthday. His family was going to come over that night, and I thought, who was at my door? I live out in the country. I saw someone at the door. It was a man and a woman, and they said, we’re with the FBI today. investigate you for your involvement on January 6th. And the first thing that came out of my mouth was, I have a mess in my kitchen. I’m baking cake. Can you come back another day? And they actually said, okay. And that is very much contrary to what a lot of J6 people that have been arrested and charged have done. But I did get investigated by them a couple of weeks later. They came over and they said that you’re We will look at all the information, and then we’ll get back to you. Well, I didn’t hear anything from them until about the middle of August or something like that, and they said, you probably are going to be arrested and charged with these four federal misdemeanors, and you’d be taken up to Denver. And so I was anticipating that to happen relatively soon, and then I didn’t hear anything for almost a year and a half. And it wasn’t until December 19th of – 2022, that I did have to go up to Denver, turn myself in, and was sat in a prison cell for about three hours while they waited to arraign me before the judge that day. And then I ended up having to did an attorney and I knew in my heart right away through having a relationship with God and praying about the whole thing that I was never to take a plea because I knew I was standing up for something much bigger than what was being done on the outside because of, my purpose of being there and why I felt like God told me to go into that building. And because it was for a bigger purpose for our country, I knew that I could never take a plea. So I didn’t take a plea, found some really great attorneys that were able to defend me. And I remember when I first interviewed them, they said, John Pierce was my law firm that defended me. John Pierce, Roger Roots, and their great paralegal, Emily Lambert. When they interviewed me, I told them that I just could not take a plea and I needed somebody who would really stand up with me. And they said, if you don’t stand up, with this um for what you believe then you will not be able to look in yourself in the mirror later on and i knew that i found the right attorney and they said president trump’s a fighter and it sounds like you are so we will fight for you and they said my defense was my intent for go why i went there and um ended up going to trial uh in march of this last year, so March 2024. I went through a six-day trial. My attorney said it probably would only take three or four, but because A lot of what the circumstances and what happened during the trial and because I took the witness stand, it ended up going actually six days. And my attorney just said, if anybody can win in a D.C. trial, it would be you because there was no violence, even on all the footage that the Capitol posted. police had and everything that the prosecution had, you could not see anything where I had done any violence. And so they said, you have a chance. But because of the way things are in the D.C. courts, they are very biased, I believe. And because of some things that the judge had said to the jury that I could not use my First Amendment rights at the capital there was really no other choice I think if I was on the jury and the judge told me that I’d have to go with that too so after the end of the closing remarks on the jury or on the jury trial they went to deliberation and the jury actually deliberated for 26 or 25 hours 26 hours and before they came up with a verdict and I My attorneys have also said if the deliberation goes longer than an hour or two, somebody is in that jury fighting for you. Because every other trial that they’ve had and any of the other ones, no one has ever been gone more than a few hours for deliberation. And like I said, mine took 26 hours. But they did end up convicting me of guilt on all four misdemeanors and I really felt that I would be nice to be declared not guilty, but when I went through the whole trial and saw how everything went, how we were not able to use some of our testimony, that would have totally shown and proven, in my opinion, my not guilty status. I think I saw that if they would have said not guilty to me, then the American people would see that the system, the justice system was fair, and it really wasn’t fair. And so I had lots of people praying for me, and I just felt like if this trial, if this jury convicts me, then… Then then this is something that God wants to amplify my voice. And immediately after they sentenced me, I knew that that’s what God was going to do. So I just told God, I said, if they convicted me and guilt in all four counts and then said my sentencing would be in 120 days, approximately from when the guilt started. the verdict was, I just told God, if I will go on any interview, and go wherever you want me to go to tell my story, because I want people to wake up and see that our country is not is in trouble that we could lose the very country that we have liberty and freedom and stand for if we don’t, you don’t hear this message. And because of Being an older woman in my 70s now, when people see what I’m like and hear my story, it does wake them up because I did not do any violence there. That’s where I met. That was part of the end of the story, and I’ll let you ask me whatever you want. Okay.
SPEAKER 16 :
Well, first of all, the judge instructed the jury that you could not exercise your First Amendment rights. That seems unconstitutional to me. What on earth was his basis, or he or she, their basis for those instructions?
SPEAKER 17 :
Well, the prosecution has said that there is an area, a restricted area around the Capitol, a perimeter. And throughout the trial, they would show this video. They would show pictures of it and imagine, you know, and outlined in red where this whole area was off limits to where you could actually go. you know, protest, you know, peacefully or whatever, where you couldn’t. And they produced some sign, which I never saw, and they tried to prove that we should have seen that sign, and that’s why we had no right to stand there. However, there have been precedents before that. There’s a judge that my attorneys have told me in the case, it’s called the Bynum case, Judge Freeman gave an opinion on that, that And said that we do have a right to the Constitution to speak in the Capitol. And it’s just as strange, but that’s what he instructed them to because of that no trespass or perimeter. What have I said? I’m making up in that area. There can be no free speech in that area. Which does seem which is very unconstitutional. And by the way, that is why I’m appealing my case. I’m appealing my case because of that very thing that the judge said. And he said it very, very openly and clearly. And my my attorneys and myself as well. When that was said, we were all very much livid inside because, you know, we as American people have a right to be at that place to peacefully protest and exercise our First Amendment rights. So, yes, that was very disturbing, Kim.
SPEAKER 16 :
Okay, so you then are convicted on these four misdemeanors. So what happens with that? You’re not in jail or prison right now, so what’s happening in your life right now?
SPEAKER 17 :
Okay, well, I was, after the guilty verdict, I had a period, like you said, of about 120 days, and they scheduled my sentencing for the 12th of August. And in that time, I ended up traveling, speaking. Many, many different people had me on interviews and shows, and I spoke at different events and just shared my story. And During that time, probation was investigating me to see what my history. I’d never had any criminal record of any sort, had a few traffic speeding tickets, but that’s about it. And so there was never any criminal activity in my life. And then when I got to the sentencing, or prior to the sentencing, the prosecution wrote up a 34-page memo, and they recommended that I be sentenced to 10 months in prison, that I… And that I’d be on community service and all this other stuff. But they said the reason they wanted this, because I’ve been one of the loudest voices out there for January 6th, defending that we were not, you know, being… They just said that I was one of a lot of voices defending what happened at January 6th for the rest of us that were there to protest, you know, the fraudulent election. And they didn’t like that. So they recommend that to the judge. When I got to the sentencing, they produced some other things that they said I was. it doesn’t matter exactly what they said, but they ended up, the judge ended up saying, you know, I don’t think I got to testify at the, before the judge, before I was sentenced. So they said, your honor, I respect your position, but I do, do honor a higher judge who is God. And at one point, every knee will bow to him. And then he said, when he gave my sentence, he said, I will not, I don’t think, Putting you in prison will do you any good. So I’m going to sentence you to 12 months of probation, six months house arrest, and a six-month ban from the Internet. And in addition to that, they knew that I was going to appeal my case, so they took whatever funds I had raised, and they fined me with a $103,000 fine, which has been, my attorneys have said, is the largest misdemeanor fine in U.S. history. And so those are the things that we are appealing, the fine as well as the First Amendment rights. that they said I didn’t have. And right now I’m sitting with an ankle monitor on.
SPEAKER 16 :
Wow. Okay. So I’m talking with Rebecca Lovrenz. She’s known as the praying grandma. She was in Washington, D.C. on January 6, 2021. And I’ve got some other questions for her. And if you have questions, you can text me at 720-605-0647. That’s 720-605-0647. And this is super interesting. We have so many of you reach out and say, oh, you have such interesting guests. And we do. And we learn so much. And it happens because of our sponsors. If you’ve been injured, reach out to John Boson with Boson Law.
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SPEAKER 13 :
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SPEAKER 16 :
And welcome back to The Kim Munson Show. Check out our website. That is KimMunson.com. Sign up for our weekly email newsletter. You can email me at Kim at KimMunson.com as well. Thank you to all of you who support us. We’re an independent voice and we search for truth and clarity by looking at these issues through the lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom. If something’s a good idea, you should not have to force people to do it. And check out the Center for American Values located in Pueblo. Pueblo is known as the home of heroes because there’s four Medal of Honor recipients that grew up there. And the Center honors our Medal of Honor recipients with the Portraits of Valor of over 160. of portraits of men that when danger presented itself they took action to protect those around them and we can take such heart from them and so get more information go to americanvaluecenter.org that’s americanvaluecenter.org i’m talking with rebecca lavren she’s known as the praying grandma she um went to washington dc on was there on january 6 2021 Did enter the Capitol for 10 minutes, was ultimately convicted of four misdemeanors, and she’s now on house arrest. So, Rebecca, what does house arrest look like? Can you leave the house? Can you go to the grocery store? What does this look like exactly?
SPEAKER 17 :
Well, I have a monitor and I can only leave. My probation has given me four hours on Wednesday afternoon where I can get out and do my errands. And that’s about it. I can go off my, I live on five acres, but I can’t. Go off my porch. Basically, I have to stay within my house, except because I have a mailbox that’s off the property or off the ways from my porch. And if you have some chickens that I take care of, they gave me an hour twice a day where I can get out and take care of things on my property, which was nice. So I get to go for a walk outside. during that time and then if I need a medical appointment or something like that chiropractor that kind of thing I can get permission to do that but I have to just leave for that and then come home so it hasn’t been really really hard for me because I really have felt that this is supposed to be a time for a rest and and doing some other things anyway so I’ve used it as a good time rather than being a feeling like I’m victimized But I feel very, very thankful that I wasn’t put in prison because so many others were, even with just misdemeanors. I have another friend that had to go serve five months for the same charges that I was charged with and acted not any different than me. So I’m very thankful that I didn’t have to have any time in prison.
SPEAKER 16 :
But you can’t leave to go to church or anything like that right now?
SPEAKER 17 :
Yeah, I can if I want to. I had been part of a church that’s online, and because I’m banned from the Internet, I can’t do that. So I really didn’t. They said I could find another option, but because I couldn’t do that, I’ve just been spending time with God myself at home. I have people that I talk to over the phone and things like that.
SPEAKER 16 :
Okay, so this is a couple of questions that people are texting in. One, it says, people who love God and country have been arrested, but people that hate our country, such as the BLM, Black Lives Matter, and they destroyed communities. Many of them have walked free, and in fact, one of the founders of Black Lives Matter bought… million dollar mansions and so there is this real question about what justice looks like in our country right now so thank you on that and certainly we do need to really ask these questions about these things another listener asked did anyone get arrested regarding the protests for the Kavanaugh hearings I don’t know the answer to that Rebecca do you happen to know I don’t believe they did
SPEAKER 17 :
I don’t know, but I don’t believe they did.
SPEAKER 16 :
Yeah, I don’t either. Okay. Okay, this is from another listener. It says, Thank you, Rebecca, who is standing up with courage to fight the injustices of this lawfare. God continue to bless her and those who are also fighting this injustice. So that’s from one of our listeners, Rebecca.
SPEAKER 17 :
Thank you. Yeah, I get so many people that are responding to my story, and it just moves my heart because I know they love God and our country. And that’s what our country is made of, people that love God and our country. And that’s what I’m standing up for. I’ve always said that it’s not about me. It’s about we, the people, and that’s why I’m doing this. It’s not anything for my glory or anything, but it’s for God’s glory. And that’s why I’m fighting this appeal. I’m standing up. If President Trump pardons me, I may have to deny it, and I would willingly deny it because I want to go all the way with my appeal so that justice and these unjust judgments would be turned around so there’s not this precedent that is already in place because of these unjust judgments. sentences and convictions of people that were there to just, because they loved our country and were standing up for truth, you know, and I’m very strong in my convictions of standing up for our country and the covenant that we have with God, that this would be a godly country, and we don’t see that, and I think that’s what’s happened, Kim, is when you remove God, like a just not talk about God or have God in our country, well, then you have a godless nation and then it’s destroyed. That’s one thing I learned from my parents, that when you take God out, then you will the country will be destroyed.
SPEAKER 16 :
Well, when you take God out of the equation, there is something that will come in to fill that void. And what we’ve seen is this secularism and really this march towards Marxism and communism here in our country. And so many people are waking up. I remember talking with a young person last January 6th, And he said to me, he said that he realized that this whole comment about an insurrection, one of our listeners has said that we should remember January 6th as a patriotic event, not an insurrection, but it’s being painted as an insurrection and it’s being repainted in the mainstream media. at this particular point in time, but this young person said, I knew that we were not being told the truth when I saw the video of the horned guy, you know, the guy with the horns on his head, walking into the inner chambers with the Capitol Hill police walking behind him. And that has stuck with me as, yeah, that seems to make a lot of sense, Rebecca.
SPEAKER 17 :
Oh, yes. And the truth has to be known because that’s where the enemy will come in. And I think we are at a day when deception is so very rampant and we all can be deceived if we don’t know the truth. And that’s the most important thing, I think, is that we get the truth out exactly what you’re doing on your show, Kim. And I am so proud of what you’re doing to get the message out because people need to know the truth. And that’s one thing that I totally agree with what you just shared because it’s This is a total, it was an entrapment. It was something that wanted to make us look like we are the evil ones when, you know, we are standing for what is truth and right.
SPEAKER 16 :
Well, and I know that you feel this responsibility. You mentioned your grandchildren, and that’s something about the founders. George Washington didn’t have any biological children, but yet he put it all on the line for posterity, for the next generation to have liberty. And that’s been entrusted to us. And so you are standing strong, and I appreciate it. We’ve got one minute left. What’s the final message you’d like to leave with our listeners, Rebecca LaFrenz?
SPEAKER 17 :
There’s a scripture in Proverbs 28, 3 that says… that evil men do not understand justice, but those who crave and seek the Lord understand it fully. And that would be my message to whoever’s listening is spend the time to really seek God. And that’s how we’re going to know what right and truth is. Without God, you won’t understand it. So put God back in your life and make him your number one priority. I have a website called Restoring Godly Culture. If you want to go to that website, I have a daily newsletter that I put out. I’m working on a book, and if you want to get my email, just put your name in there, and you can find out more about what I’m doing and my story.
SPEAKER 16 :
Okay. Again, that’s Rebecca LaVrenze. Thank you so much. I really do appreciate it. And all of us should put you in our daily prayers. So thank you. And our quote for the end of the show is from James Monroe, our fifth president. He said, there’s a price tag on human liberty. That price is the willingness to assume the responsibilities of being free men. Payment of this price is a personal matter with each of us. So my friends today, be grateful, read great books, think good thoughts, listen to beautiful music, communicate and listen well, live honestly and authentically, strive for high ideals, and like Superman, stand for truth, justice, and the American way. My friends, we are not alone. God bless you, and God bless America, and make sure that we are saying our daily prayers for our country. So we’ll talk to you tomorrow.
SPEAKER 03 :
I don’t want no one to cry, but tell them if I don’t survive, I was born.
SPEAKER 06 :
The views and opinions expressed on KLZ 560 are those of the speaker, commentators, hosts, their guests, and callers. They are not necessarily the views and opinions of Crawford Broadcasting or KLZ management, employees, associates, or advertisers. KLZ 560 is a Crawford Broadcasting God and country station.
