In this moving episode of The Good News, Angie Austin interviews Debbie Hartung, a San Francisco-based artist and author, who courageously recounts her experiences with mental health challenges. Listen as Debbie shares her journey of awakening in a psychiatric ward, navigating the stigma attached to mental health issues, and her involvement with a new age group that spiraled into a cult. The candid conversation also touches on the need for reform in mental health facilities and the power of storytelling as a mode of healing.
00:00:00 Introduction of Debbie Hartung and her book
Welcome to The Good News with Angie Austin. Now, with The Good News, here’s Angie.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey there, friend. Angie Austin here on The Good News. I’m really excited about today’s interview, and I’ll explain more in depth in a minute, but I’m fascinated by the topic because of my family history. The book is The Factory of Maladies, and the author, Debbie Hartung, is joining us. Welcome to the program, Debbie.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you, Angie. I’m so happy to be here, and I’m really looking forward to chatting with you about my new book this morning.
SPEAKER 05 :
OK, so it talks about, you know, the complexities of mental health, et cetera, family dynamics. And I understand that your aunt was involved with the cult and you basically woke up and you were in a situation that was very foreign to you. So let’s just get into your story so that we can talk about the complexities of mental health.
SPEAKER 06 :
Sure. I’d love to just dive right in.
SPEAKER 05 :
Let’s do it.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, so my memoir, The Factory of Maladies is very, it’s a visceral and raw, deeply personal story. And yes, nine years ago, I awoke on a psychiatric ward. And I could not remember how I arrived. It was very, it was extremely terrifying. And I couldn’t recall What had happened, I woke up in a freezing room. It was dark and I was on a mattress that smelled and I couldn’t grasp how I arrived at that point in my life.
SPEAKER 05 :
So you’re freezing cold, which, sorry, that’s just like one of my things that’s like my top five least favorite things is to be extremely cold and then to be scared in the dark, not know how you got there. It’s like really tipping off on like some of the top five things people would be terrified by. And when do you figure out why you’re there and what happened? Yeah.
SPEAKER 06 :
So my memory had huge blank spots. And through the week, so my memoir actually is just about this one particular week in my life. And throughout the week, I start having flashbacks and my memory starts to recover and the blank spots start to give way to the reasons in which the reasons for which I was hospitalized and how complex and intense my suicide attempt was.
SPEAKER 05 :
So as your memories are starting to come back, and I know I was reading about you too, Debbie. I mean, you remind me of me, you know, in terms of college educated, you know, you were a successful person. It wasn’t like you’re this person on the street that’s, you know, we hear about people in mental health units that maybe have used drugs or, you know, done this or that. You know, you aren’t actually the person I would come to first think of ending up in a psych ward.
SPEAKER 06 :
No, and that’s part of the reason I felt compelled to share my story because I experience the stigma of mental health and especially those who have attempted suicide is a particular stigma within a stigma. And I really, I just want to drive home the point that mental health challenges do not discriminate. If you have unbalanced brain chemistry… it really is like any other medical condition. It can happen to the most well-educated, wealthy, happy, healthy individuals, and it can happen at any time. And when it does, in my experience, the spiral happens so quickly from when I was living this great life as a budding artist, I had a stable relationship, I had money in the bank, and I think it was a matter of six months. from that point until I woke up on a psychiatric ward, not knowing how I arrived there.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, I would say half of my family struggles with mental health issues. And one of my brothers was paranoid schizophrenic. And I think he had seasonal affective disorder. He’d be a little more depressed, you know, in the winter months. And they said bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and maybe the seasonal affective disorder. But, you know, there were times when he was so loving and caring, and he was an artist as well. And So bright and engaging and funny. And then when he would have these episodes, he was unrecognizable to me. And I remember when I was a little kid, just the first time that he was institutionalized. And I was maybe, I think he was 17. So I probably would have been about 11. And I remember going to visit him at the psych ward and they had him strapped down on like a metal table and his ankles and his… wrists were bound and it was there was very sterile you know the camera was on him so we’re viewing him from outside of the room and there was nothing in there except tile and this metal you know bed with uh wrist and leg constraints and i was like oh my gosh he’s 17 years old like How terrifying for him. Like, I was terrified, just standing there watching him. And I was always afraid, like, what if that happened to me? And I have a little brother that also is similar. My older brother was murdered, and my younger brother has been institutionalized on and off for all of his adult life. I haven’t seen him. He disappeared about 10 years, but I haven’t seen him. for many years. And like once a year, I’ll get a call. There’s never a phone number for him because he’s too paranoid to have a cell phone because he thinks people are tracking him and this and that. But anyway, to make a long story short, I just was always fascinated by it because if I told people that my brothers had cancer, they’d be like, oh, my goodness I am so sorry your brother’s sick but like that they’re crazy you know what I mean like that oh they’re crazy well that’s somehow shameful that what is wrong with your family what happened to them how did you guys grow up like why did they turn out that way you know and it’s hard to explain because you don’t know you can’t figure out how they got cancer and I can’t figure out why he’s a paranoid schizophrenic right so how do you wrap your head around it if if you know, there’s, like you said, the stigma. So then do you tell people the truth about what, you know, what their issues are? Or do you pretend they’re just in the hospital because, you know, they’ve got an infection? You know what I mean? Like, why does society make us feel differently about something that’s a mental health issue? And when, like you said, it’s just like any other illness, it’s just something’s amiss in your body. Yes, I completely agree with the stigmas.
SPEAKER 06 :
And I also really empathize with you and your family situation and your brothers and I also have paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorder in my family as well. So I can really relate to that. And yes, I’m so glad that you’re sharing this because I think the more we talk about it, the less power the stigma will hold. And unfortunately, society, it just hasn’t quite caught up. to the fact that mental illness, like you said, is an illness. If you broke your leg bicycling, the doctors would, you know, fell off your bicycle. A doctor would, you know, give you compassion and feel sorry for you and elevate your leg and give you painkillers and make you comfortable. However, if something’s wrong with your brain chemistry and you’re in a crisis, more often than not, if you’re in a publicly funded hospital, um, At least in my experience, I was treated almost like a criminal. And it’s just not fair.
SPEAKER 05 :
No, I just want people to know about you. So I’m just going to read a little bit about your bio. You’re a San Francisco-based abstract artist and an author, obviously. We’re talking about your book. You studied psychology and visual art at the University of San Francisco. I mean, hello. You graduated with honors. You’re an avid traveler, which I completely relate to. It’s such a beautiful thing to do. passionate about the healing powers of the arts, including visual mediums, music and writing. The Factory of Maladies is your literary debut. And really, this is something that you felt compelled to write to get rid of some of the stigma and to share, you know, your story about this crisis in the psychiatric ward that, you know, you’re chronicling that week. So what led up to you that six months that led up to you finding yourself in the psych ward and not knowing how you got there in the freezing cold room. What led up to it as you’ve uncovered more of that?
SPEAKER 06 :
So the mystery that began to unravel itself was very, you know, fractured. My mind was, you know, fractured and there was big, dark, gaping holes. And yet when things came through and I was able to piece together what had happened, I came to realize that I was associated with a new age group. And in the beginning, it felt like a spiritual group that, you know, had good intentions in the world. And, you know, my family member that I trusted implicitly sort of indoctrinated me into this group and i had no reason to doubt her or her at this point in my life and the more i came became involved with the group unfortunately the guru shall we say became increasingly greedy and power hungry and he realized that i was in a unique position because i was conveniently off of my medication, which he recommended.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yes. I was not seeing a licensed therapist because he said I didn’t need one and he could be my therapist. And as I began to… The longer I was off of my meds, the more I lost my reasoning and logic skills. And I just believed I trusted him. And he saw… my weakness and exploited it. And it quickly cascaded from a group into a cult situation. And he implied that my mental health struggles and my depression and anxiety were karmic related. And he sort of prescribed these spiritual healing tools. that would clear my karma and restore me to, you know, balance brain chemistry.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, it’s interesting. I just wanted a side note. I’ve watched so many, I guess I’m fascinated also by cults and the power they have over people. And you see how highly intelligent people are. fall prey to these charismatic leaders that in so many cases are abusive in numerous ways. And I guess from the outside looking in, I’m just fascinated by the phenomenon. I don’t even like to say the word Scientology because they visited me once in Southern California when I was working on a story with them. And I realized there were people at my place of work in Burbank, California, that must have been associated with Scientology to know that I was working on this story. Interestingly enough, Debbie, a young woman that had some mental health issues and she ended up dying. My understanding, and I could be wrong, was that it was because of dehydration and they weren’t feeding her. And it happened down in Clearwater, Florida. And so I was hiring producers to investigate what happened to her, and they visited me at my station, and they tried to get me to come visit them and brought me a lot of books. And I was the only person there on the weekend, and no one knew that I’d gone. I was single. I had just gone to work on a Sunday to do some extra work. And so someone was following me or notified them that I was there alone. And so I thought to myself, oh, my goodness, like these – These organizations, shall we call them, and these documentaries that I’ve been watching on cults, so many highly intelligent people that have a need for something. Maybe it’s an acceptance. Maybe it’s like you said you trusted. You thought he could help you. He got you off your medication. He’s giving you these spiritual remedies to balance your brain chemistry. And you’re like, wow, I found someone that really understands me. That’s going to help me. And I won’t have to be on this medication for the rest of my life. This is like nirvana. This is so great for me. And then here you end up in a psych ward and you’re, you know, manipulated by this person that you think has your best interest at heart. All right, Debbie, I’m so interested in our conversation that we have to end this segment here in a minute. So I’m going to come back with you. But for people who may not be able to stick around and hear more about the factory of malady seven days on a San Francisco psych ward, would you give us your contact information so people can find you and your book? I found you on Amazon, by the way.
SPEAKER 06 :
Oh, thank you. And thank you so much for sharing that amazing story. An extremely sad story, and it really does show how dangerous these types of organizations and pervasive how they are. Yes, I am available through my website, thefactoryofmaladies.com, and you can also purchase my book, as we mentioned, on Amazon, bookshop.org, and Barnes & Noble.
SPEAKER 05 :
All right, let’s take a break, and we’ll come right back with Debbie.
SPEAKER 01 :
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SPEAKER 05 :
Kimball, Nebraska is listening to the mighty 670 KLT Denver. Hey there, friend. Welcome back to The Good News. I’m really engaged in our conversation with Debbie Hartung, the author of The Factory of Maladies, Seven Days on the San Francisco Psych Ward. So it really chronicles that seven days you’re on the psych ward, but we’re talking about what led up to it. You had a very trusted family member who was involved in what you found out later to be a cult. and this leader told you, get off your medication for your mental health issues, and I will help lead you into a perfect situation where you’ll no longer be dependent on those, and we’ll balance your brain chemistry through what the person called some kind of spiritual healings. So then what happened, Debbie?
SPEAKER 06 :
So yes, so yes, that is correct. So as I think it was about six months of this healing, and And obviously, my brain chemistry did not improve. And I’ve suffered from major depressive disorder and anxiety my entire life. And I was so low, I was contemplating suicide. And as this guru was acting as my therapist, I confided in him.
SPEAKER 04 :
I know, it’s like, this needs to be a movie. I’m like, oh no, what is he going to do with that information? Okay, so you told him that.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right, I know it is very cinematic. So unfortunately, and this is so, so sad, he continued to exploit me and put two and two together that I had some money in the bank. My grandparents had lovingly bequeathed me A small inheritance about 20 years before this happened. And because of the family dynamics, he was aware of this and he encouraged me to take my own life. and to leave my small inheritance to him.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay, that is so evil on so many levels. Like, I can’t even imagine, like, other than just stabbing you and robbing you. I mean, it’s right up there. Like, he’s basically saying, kill yourself and redo your, you know, your will so that you leave all the money to our cult. I mean, unbelievable. And that your trusted family member is kind of backing this and telling him this information so that he knows you have this money available to, quote unquote, him.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right. It’s just so even to this day, it’s been nine years. It’s still incredibly heartbreaking and unbelievable. You know, I just sometimes just don’t even believe it really happened. But that is the truth. And it all came to light during an occupational therapy session. And I write about it in my book. And it was, you know, incredibly sad and intense. But once I realized what had happened and how easily it happened and how much shame I felt around, um, my suicide attempt and, and sort of falling for this, um, gurus, you know, for his, um, His prescriptions.
SPEAKER 05 :
And, you know, it’s interesting, his prescription for healing guru, but really he’s a murderous con artist. You know what I mean? Like here he’s respected as a guru, a healing guru, but really he’s a murderous con artist. It’s unbelievable to me. And that these people can wield so much power over their organization, shall we call the cults.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right, exactly. And I forget that we’re just on a call, so you can see my air quotes or my facial expressions. Yes. But yes, I completely agree with you. He was a con artist. And I just, there was just so many emotions and then the shame of having a suicide attempt and the stigma around mental health and the manner in which I was treated in the hospital and how I saw my fellow patients treated. That’s why I felt compelled to share my story because I just want people to know that mental illness
SPEAKER 05 :
not something to be ashamed of you know this was you had these journal entries than that you turned into the book the factory of melodies and you know I’m picturing you in there like if I was in a similar situation that I’d want to wear a shirt that says hey I know I’m in a psych ward but I graduated from college with honors I’m a successful person you know I have a highly you know successful life you know I have money in the bank I you know I I’m an artist like you wanted to say like hey I Like, I’m okay, but then you’re all lumped in there in the crazy house, right? And they’re all treating you the same. And from my understanding, it was in a rather degrading manner where you lost your identity of who you’d been on the outside.
SPEAKER 06 :
I did, yes. I lost it so intensely that it was really hard to remember who I was. And yet I looked around and… So many of my fellows were Ivy League educated. One was a psychiatric nurse, actually. One was a teacher. These were people that were very successful in the outside world, yet their illness was so intense, they also found themselves in the same situation with me. And there was a moment while I was in the psychiatric ward where There was this lovely nurse and she was very kind hearted and somewhere in my chart, there was information about my history and that I was an artist and a writer. And one night I was trying to sleep, which was virtually impossible, but my eyes were closed and they opened them and she was standing over my bed. And I, of course I was initially terrified and frightened. And she said, you know, be quiet. And she handed me a blank notebook and a miniature golf pencil. And she said, I know you like to write. And she looked at me and it was almost as if she was saying, tell your story. And it was prohibited for any patient to have a sharp object, i.e. a pencil or anything else you can think of, or a notebook. And then she’d ran out of my room. And at that point, it really hit home that this was something I needed to share with the world, no matter how uncomfortable it made me feel.
SPEAKER 05 :
So you started those journal entries and figured out why you were there, how you ended up there.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yes, I did. And I was so discombobulated. And it’s inferred in the book, but not said outright. I experienced a brain injury for my suicide attempt. So when I was trying to write, unfortunately, it was just scribbles. I couldn’t make my brain and my hands work together at that point. But a month afterwards, I was able to write again. And I just began writing journals and Cafe is all around San Francisco to heal the PTSD that I experienced from my institutionalization. And I call it putting my pain to paper. Because it was the ultimate catharsis for me.
SPEAKER 05 :
You talk about family dynamics in the book and then this trusted family member that led you to this new age cult and this con man that, you know, manipulated you. What do you think made you in particular vulnerable to the influence of this cult?
SPEAKER 06 :
I think there’s quite a few factors. One of them is that I’m inherently a very trusting, optimistic individual, and I always try to see the best in people, although to a fault. So that was… I was just predisposed, I think, to that sort of influence. And also, I had no reason to doubt my family member. She had never given me any reason before, and I honestly thought that she was trying… to help me. And I think the third is that because of my depression and anxiety issues and also eating disorders, which I talk about in the book, my childhood wasn’t ideal and being very creative. I didn’t quite fit in with my fellow students and I was picked on and made fun of. So I think I always had a longing to be a part of a group. So all of those factors, I think, plus my unbalanced brain chemistry, just it was like, you know, the perfect storm.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, that that that all makes sense to me now in writing the book and talking about the time in the mental health ward in the institution. How has writing the book impacted your your mental health journey?
SPEAKER 06 :
It’s impacted it in some wonderful ways. I feel really happy to share. It’s really gotten me out of my comfort zone. As an artist and writer, I usually work behind the scenes, especially my writing, helping other people with their manuscripts or writing marketing copy. But this, this time, it was as if the spotlight was on me. And although it brought up anxiety and it was triggering, it’s actually pushed me to be an even better version of myself than I was before.
SPEAKER 05 :
Now, in terms of reform and like your experience and the dehumanizing experience of being in a mental health facility, do you, you know, in terms of reform and what that would look like, like kind of what do you want us to know about those facilities and what would be beneficial to the way that they, you know, their treatment of their patients?
SPEAKER 06 :
So I think if I may share an example, I think this example really illustrates the differences between a regular hospital ward and a psychiatric ward. So five years before I was institutionalized, I was at the same hospital with the same health insurance, and I had a severe problem with my ovaries, and I spent five days in the hospital. And while I was there, I was given warm blankets, extra pillows, round-the-clock care from compassionate and highly educated, trained nurses, very attentive doctors, and I was given morphine for my intense physical pain. And yet, when I found myself in the psychiatric ward and I was being held there against my will, I… I felt as if I was a criminal. I was freezing the entire time. The mattress I slept on was incredibly dirty and thin and I was given pancakes and pillows and no one offered me clean scrubs until I discovered them in a closet. and requested them. But I was walking around, you know, and I was extremely dirty. And then on top of it to be, you know, as you mentioned, the dehumanizing aspect of it, the staff I encountered, although many of them had good intentions, they were clearly not trained to deal with people in an emotional crisis. And the doctors were overworked and very busy working. And there was really no therapist on call. So, and on the weekends, there’s absolutely no programming scheduled. So I just felt, and I could tell that my fellow patients felt the same. We just wandered the halls or we just sat in the day room. And also we weren’t allowed outside. So all of those factors just added to the extreme anxiety sense of feeling like we were being treated as if we had committed a crime.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, I think your memoir is going to help a lot of people so deeply personal and really, you know, helping to take the stigma off, really opening yourself up to people and to potential criticism. But I think that what it’s going to do is make, you know, you and I talking about it, make people more compassionate towards people, you know, dealing with mental health issues, just like they are people dealing with cancer. Again, the book is The Factory of Maladies, Seven Days on a San Francisco Road. psych ward. Debbie Hartung, give us your website.
SPEAKER 06 :
It’s the factory of maladies.com.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, thank you so much. A real blessing to have you on the show. Thank you, Debbie.
SPEAKER 06 :
Oh, thank you, Angie. It’s been lovely to talk with you. Thanks so much.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you for listening to the good news with Angie Austin on AM 670 KLTT.
