John Rush and Andy dig into a blunt political question: does the two-party system actually protect conservative outcomes—or is it holding the country back? Andy lays out his “individualists vs. collectivists” framework (cats vs. cattle) to argue that when conservatives splinter across more parties—or sit out—organized progressives still consolidate and win. They point to Europe, Israel’s coalition reality, and Colorado’s surge in unaffiliated voters as examples of how fragmentation can translate into less liberty and more one-party dominance.
Along the way, they hit several hot-button topics: the purpose of the Second Amendment (personal protection vs. a check against government power),
SPEAKER 11 :
This is Rush to Reason. You are going to shut your damn yapper and listen for a change because I got you pegged, sweetheart. You want to take the easy way out because you’re scared. And you’re scared because if you try and fail, there’s only you to blame. Let me break this down for you. Life is scary. Get used to it. There are no magical fixes. With your host, John Rush. My advice to you is to do what your parents did. Get a job first.
SPEAKER 09 :
You haven’t made everybody equal. You’ve made them the same and there’s a big difference.
SPEAKER 07 :
Let me tell you why you’re here. You’re here because you know something. What you know you can’t explain, but you feel it. You felt it your entire life. That there’s something wrong with the world. You don’t know what it is, but it’s there. It is this feeling that has brought you to me.
SPEAKER 09 :
Are you crazy?
SPEAKER 04 :
Am I? Or am I so sane that you just blew your mind?
SPEAKER 03 :
It’s Rush to Reason with your host, John Rush. Presented by Cub Creek Heating and Air Conditioning.
SPEAKER 06 :
All right, we are back. Rush to Reason, Denver’s Afternoon Rush, KLZ 560. Before we get into Andy talking about our two-party system and the fact that it’s a great system, we’ll get into that in a moment. I have a texter that I’ve been going back and forth with ever since we talked about the mental illness of transgenderism in the first hour. And this particular person seems to think that And again, left is always trying to catch you in something that they say. Sure. As you know, Andy, full well, you’re from that side. And so this particular person continues to ask me that, OK, given the fact that that’s a mental illness and I don’t feel like they should own guns, then who should? And I said, well, your side already has initiated red flag laws. You tell me. And then the answer back is, of course, without giving me an answer as to who should own a gun and shouldn’t, the answer back is, well, I don’t think anybody should own a gun. It should be something you have to register for, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, okay, the Constitution says otherwise, so try again. In other words, you’re not arguing the point. You’re still, this person, whoever you are, you still haven’t got my point that being transgender is a mental illness. And no, I don’t think those folks, since your side believes this, by the way, not me, your side does, that people that are mentally ill shouldn’t own guns, then by your own definition, they shouldn’t own guns. Right. Am I right in what I’m saying, Andy?
SPEAKER 05 :
You’re totally right.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, John, let me say this really quick for that person, okay? And for anybody out there who wants stricter gun laws and feels that we conservatives are just a bunch of gun-toting nuts, okay? I want you to know this. The reason I believe in the Second Amendment, the reason I believe in the right to carry is not because I need to have a gun. OK, it is one reason I want you and your family to be as safe as possible. Period. End of story. I don’t wake up every day needing my gun. I wake up every day needing your safety. And the numbers show overwhelmingly the more freedom people have to carry guns freely. the less gun crime you have, the less gun violence you have.
SPEAKER 06 :
And on top of that, let’s not forget what the Second Amendment is for, which Andy’s right, not arguing with Andy at all. He is 100% correct, although that’s not what the Second Amendment was designed for.
SPEAKER 05 :
Agreed.
SPEAKER 06 :
The Second Amendment was designed so that I can keep myself safe from a tyrannical government. Right. Let’s not forget that. This has nothing to do about each other’s safety as citizens. This has to do about citizenry being safe from a tyrannical government, which, by the way, we’re right on the precipice of.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right. Look, if you have an unarmed, a disarmed populace, the government’s going to go wild.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s exactly right. They’ll do whatever they want to.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right.
SPEAKER 06 :
The only reason that hasn’t happened in this country is because we are the heaviest armed citizenry on planet Earth.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, I know there are a lot of people that are complaining about ICE. Well, ICE is too intrusive. By the way, folks, ICE is not intrusive. They are going after people who are here illegally. Let me ask you something, John. Is there anywhere you can go illegally where people would be wrongly?
SPEAKER 06 :
to to remove you no okay no i’m going to if i go into a theater illegally without a ticket they are not wrong to remove correct okay if i entered into our southern border the other way into mexico and i don’t have all my proper paperwork andy do you think they’re going to let me in no they’re going to remove you okay so then why is it a problem coming the other way Because racism, racism, racism.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In other words, as always, the left, they can’t argue against the actual points. So what do they got to do? They have to bring something else into it. Interject racism, interject feminism, interject whatever. Right. Anything that will take you off of the point. And that’s what they’re going to have to put in because they can’t stand up.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right. Okay.
SPEAKER 1 :
100%.
SPEAKER 05 :
By the way, really quick before we go on.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, promo that. We’ll take a break, come back, and give you plenty of time. So promo what we’re going to talk about.
SPEAKER 05 :
Really quick. Somebody put out a good post. It tied in what we were saying. The left. We need a woman president. Also the left. Women aren’t smart enough to get an ID. Also the left. What’s a woman? That’s pretty funny. Okay, in the next segment, here’s what we’re going to talk about. We’re going to talk about the two-party system because, you know what, it has really become in vogue in the liberty community to rip on the two-party system and to say you are just a Republican slave if you don’t believe in other parties. And if you believe in the two-party system, it’s because you just want power in the Republican Party and you don’t care about those libertarians and all that. I want to tell you in the next segment why the two-party system is important. the greatest thing for conservatives, period.
SPEAKER 06 :
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SPEAKER 15 :
Putting reason into your afternoon drive. This is John Rush.
SPEAKER 05 :
And welcome back to Rush to Reason, Denver’s Afternoon Rush, KLZ 560, John Rush. Together with Andy Page on, we’re going to talk about the two-party system. And it has been beaten up for too long, and I want people to understand something. Those who are beating up the two-party system want Democrats to win.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 05 :
And I mean it. Okay.
SPEAKER 06 :
Explain.
SPEAKER 05 :
All right. This is why the two-party system is awesome for conservatives. And I mean principled conservatives. Number one, conservatives are individualists, while liberals are collectivists. Okay. In other words, and I’m going to call individualists I’s and collectivists C’s. Okay. Just make it.
SPEAKER 06 :
I’s and C’s.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 05 :
I’s want personal freedom. C’s want collective control. Can we agree on that?
SPEAKER 06 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 05 :
And let’s make it very obvious. The Democrat Party, every single piece of legislation they put out. Has to do with collective control over the individual. Very true. Every single time.
SPEAKER 06 :
Very true.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 06 :
Very true.
SPEAKER 05 :
Eyes naturally scatter, valuing purity over power. That’s why we on the right have all our purity tests for our – don’t we, right?
SPEAKER 01 :
We do.
SPEAKER 05 :
Liberty scorecard, which, by the way, is not a very honest thing. Sorry, there are some problems with that. And, but C’s, okay, naturally collect together.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 05 :
So I scatter, C’s collect together. Why? Because they want to overpower purity with power. Right. I’s value purity over power. C’s value power over purity. Right. Okay. I’s are cats. C’s are cattle.
SPEAKER 06 :
I always say C’s are sheep, but.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 06 :
Because they’re even worse than cattle.
SPEAKER 05 :
I would agree with that. I would agree. But I’m going to go with cattle because they stampede.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s fine.
SPEAKER 05 :
All right. So, so far, is that making sense? Yes. I don’t think there’s anything I’ve said so far that people could argue with. Correct? I agree. Okay. Next, when there are two options and more party loyalty. Okay. So you got only two options. and more loyalty to those two parties. When that happens, I’s get to see individualists, they get to see clear us versus them, okay? We got our party, which is with the individualists who we believe in personal freedom, And we got their party, the collectivists who believe in collective control. It’s a very simple choice. That one or that one, period. And when you only have those two choices, predominantly, the eyes can collect together and have political power. It’s very easy. Am I making sense so far? Okay, thus they can collect together to stop the cattle from stampeding them. But when there are more options and less party loyalty, guess what eyes do? They splinter. Or they don’t vote at all, right? And they splinter at a much higher rate than the Cs. Now, is that even debatable?
SPEAKER 06 :
No.
SPEAKER 05 :
I mean, obviously the individualists who all want purity, and you know what a purity test is really, John? It’s just demanding that your party or your party leader or your candidate be most like you. Because I’m an individualist, so whose values mean the most? Mine.
SPEAKER 06 :
Mine, right.
SPEAKER 05 :
OK. Right. That’s why they want purity tests. You’ve got to be most like me. Here’s my list of 20 things. You’d better agree with at least 19 of them. And otherwise, I’m going to throw you out. The collectivist, meanwhile, just says we need to get as many of us together and get mob rule and overrun these individuals. Right. OK. Right. So what I’m saying is this. More options plus less party loyalty equals the seas are going to trample the eye, which means defeat. Yeah, it means defeat. It’s total defeat. And that’s almost always going to be the case. Now, for those who want evidence, okay, there’s plenty. Let me give three. They’re real easy. First, Europe. Europe has had many parties for as long as we can remember. So is it more conservative than America or more liberal? You tell me. Far more liberal. Far more liberal. Of course. Does it have more or less individual freedom?
SPEAKER 06 :
Less.
SPEAKER 05 :
Far less. Right. Europe has far less individual freedom than America. And they’ve had far more political parties. Now, by the way, I had one guy trying to argue with me because he likes to. And that’s OK. I enjoy that. And he said, what about Israel? They have multiple political parties and they’ve got Benjamin Netanyahu as a conservative leader. Okay, two big problems with this. Number one, Netanyahu is only conservative on foreign affairs. Right. He’s not.
SPEAKER 06 :
He’s not in everything else.
SPEAKER 05 :
No, not in everything else. That’s number one. Number two, you’re talking about it’s very easy to be conservative on foreign affairs in Israel. Why? Because you are a theocracy, basically. You’re the closest thing to it.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, they’re not a republic like we are.
SPEAKER 05 :
And you are the only Jewish nation on earth in this surrounded by nations that want you dead okay it’s a lot easier to be conservative on foreign policy right in that kind of a setting but they are very liberal more than we are and say on say uh covid policy or or on abortion or many things um it was what i was telling the guys you got a really bad example there uh israel Israel, a place that starts with very conservative beginnings, is actually much more liberal than America. So I’m sorry, that doesn’t really hold.
SPEAKER 06 :
Anyway— And really quick for those along those lines, and most maybe don’t know this. Israel—and I’m reading this for you so you’ll know exactly how this works—operates on a multi-party parliamentary democracy with 120-seat unicameral parliament— And I’m not going to say this word right. K-N-E-S-S-E-T.
SPEAKER 05 :
Neset.
SPEAKER 06 :
Utilizing a nationwide proportional representation system with a 3.25% electoral threshold, no party has ever won an outright majority requiring coalition governments formed through negotiations between diverse right center and left wing factions.
SPEAKER 05 :
Which, by the way, the Nasset, which you just described, has made it a living hell for Netanyahu to do anything. Right. To govern effectively and to have an effective governing majority. It’s been awful.
SPEAKER 06 :
The reality is it’s a mess, folks.
SPEAKER 05 :
You don’t want that. First of all, he’s not that conservative. He is in foreign affairs because any, unless you’re a complete idiot. In Israel, you’d better be conservative on foreign affairs, okay? Otherwise, you guys are gone, all right? And on a lot of other things, he’s liberal. Anyway, it doesn’t hold up. Okay, getting back to Europe. Europe has many parties, right? Less party loyalty, more options, and they are far more liberal. Let’s look at America. Meanwhile, America has the longest-running two-party system in Western civilization. Though imperfect, America has the most capitalism and personal liberty anywhere in the world. Right. And look what’s propping it up, that two-party system. Why? Because the ayes, the individualists, only have two major options. And that helps rally the cats together so they don’t get stampeded. Last example, Colorado. The past decade has seen a dramatic rise in unaffiliated voters in Colorado, while the two major parties have declined. Now, did this create more liberty for ayes? Did it give us more liberty? No. No, it went the opposite direction. The more unaffiliated voters we have and the less loyalty to parties, the C’s still collect together when it matters. Election time, well, the I’s fracture or they stay home. C’s are trampling I’s in Colorado. Colorado is now deep blue as we’ve had more options, far more people who are unaffiliated, not committed to either of the two major parties. And yet one of the major parties is cleaning up. And it’s going exactly as I would predict.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yep.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right. The C’s collect together anyway. The I’s fracture or they stay home. So all the evidence goes one direction. More options plus less party loyalty equals better for collectivists. The left. Two parties plus more party loyalty equals better for individualists. They’re right. Now, is the Republican Party pure, John?
SPEAKER 06 :
No.
SPEAKER 05 :
No, of course not. But that’s the point. You can’t avoid compromise in any massive group of individualists. We’re cats, right? But loyalty is crucial to our survival. Okay. And I basically finish with this. Folks, I’m not a Republican groupie. I’m not. No, we are not. I’m not a sycophant. All right? I’m a realist. Loyalty to the GOP doesn’t make us thoughtless cattle. It makes us intelligent cats who see the strategy needed to stop cattle from stampeding us. What do you think?
SPEAKER 06 :
Agree.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. I’m telling you, folks, if you believe in more parties, third parties, extra parties, more options, I’m telling you what, you will splinter conservatives far more than liberals. They will still collect together and wipe you out.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, it’s the defeatist approach. Yeah. You’re done if you do that.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right. And there are some people who say, well, the founding fathers, they didn’t like political parties. You know what? I love the founding fathers, but they’re not gods. They’re not perfect. They were living at a time when we were literally just breaking free and individual liberty was for everyone. It was the number one thing. Right. Do you think they could think ahead to a point? where Marxism would overwhelm our public education system and train kids and train whole generations to want the wrong things.
SPEAKER 06 :
No, because honestly, Andy, I believe, great question, because I believe if they had And they had great foresight. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not shortchanging those guys at all. They had great foresight and created a lot of things in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, that frankly have stood the test of time. So I’m not saying that they were inadequate by any stretch of the imagination. But what I will say is this. If they’d have had a crystal ball and they could have seen where we are today, to be honest with you, and this is going to scare a lot of lefties, they would have even strengthened some of the things that we actually have, like the Second Amendment and other things, by the way. It would have been far worse than even some of your liberals think it is today because they would have done things that you couldn’t have imagined had they thought we’d be where we’re at today.
SPEAKER 05 :
John, they thought they had religious liberty fully covered, and there was no way, the way they laid it out, that people of faith would get treated poorly in our country, and they were wrong. They couldn’t see what was coming.
SPEAKER 06 :
There was so much. I’ll give you one example. I think they would have even carved out Islam as not being a faith. They would have called that a political ideology back in the day because that’s exactly what it was, and they knew that.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, I think they would have.
SPEAKER 06 :
They would have literally carved that out and not even allowed that into the religious freedom end of things. Trust me when I say that, folks, they would have.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, and by the way, when people hear that and they think that John and I are a couple of bigots, let me say this.
SPEAKER 06 :
Oh, no, I just know what a political ideology is.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, yes, and here’s the foundational difference between Islam and the other faiths. It’s very simple, okay? When did Jesus and the apostles ever try to force non-Christians to live like Christians?
SPEAKER 06 :
They never did.
SPEAKER 05 :
Never. There is no Christian jihad. There is no atheist jihad. There is no Buddhist jihad. Okay, jihad is unique. Jihad is literally forcing others— to have your faith, or to be punished for not doing it.
SPEAKER 06 :
I truly think that because of things that happened prior to our revolution and so on, I really think the Founding Fathers thought that they had Islam kind of in its place, and it wouldn’t be what it is today. I really feel like that’s why they didn’t carve out some of those things. But trust me, folks, when I say that they would have even strengthened the Second Amendment, probably even the First Amendment, above what it is right now. I think they thought, okay, we’ve got this covered, we’re good to go. These are—and keep in mind, they had no idea at the time. I mean, they had— not even repeating rifles. They had, you know, we had rifled muskets, which were much better than what the English even had. So we had some superiority as far as that goes. But they had no idea we would have some of the, you know, for example, nuclear power that we’ve got today. I mean, they had no ability to look down the road and see that. And again, they created the Second Amendment, as Andy and I talked about earlier, to stave off the government not to save us from one another.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right. You have to keep in mind, at the time of the Founding Fathers, they were looking and saying, well, the Crusades, brutal and at times going too far. Don’t get me wrong. But the Crusades worked. That problem we’ve got on a low burn and it’s far away. We don’t have to worry about that. Like you’re saying, they didn’t plan for what has happened now in New York City.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. Look, the simple fact is the Founding Fathers were not into parties previously. Because they really loved individualism.
SPEAKER 06 :
And they didn’t have to at the time, Andy.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right. Because they never had to think about all the cats having to group into one side because they didn’t think about cattle overrunning them because there were no cattle. Everybody believed in individual liberty. That was the whole point of creating America.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s why they fought so much getting some of the things into the Constitution that were there in the first place. Right. Right. Because of that.
SPEAKER 05 :
But I’m telling you, the two party system is the only protector really for individual liberty, because otherwise I got news for all you cats out there. You are going to scatter and the other side is still going to collect and overrun you here in Colorado. That’s exactly what they’ve done.
SPEAKER 06 :
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SPEAKER 05 :
And welcome back to Rush to Reason, Denver’s Afternoon Rush, KLZ 560. Okay, John, real quick here. If the Founding Fathers lived today, what party would they be in?
SPEAKER 06 :
Republicans.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah. Well, wait a minute. Wouldn’t they be purists in the Constitution Party?
SPEAKER 06 :
No.
SPEAKER 05 :
Purists in the Libertarian Party? Or wouldn’t they be unaffiliated because they don’t believe in parties?
SPEAKER 06 :
No, because they also wanted to win.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yep. Yep.
SPEAKER 06 :
And so to them, the utmost would be, okay, how do we win? How do we move things forward? How do we get our agenda handled? How do we save the country and keep it going on the right track? And, yeah, in that case, they would be Republicans, Andy.
SPEAKER 05 :
First of all, you’re 100% right. Secondly, John, I want to add to something you were saying earlier. The founding fathers, had they seen what was coming, would have done some different things. I believe they would have prevented the public education system. Government-run education? I can’t imagine the founding fathers going for that.
SPEAKER 06 :
I think I would agree with you on that.
SPEAKER 05 :
The government, which is a socialized system just by default, right, actually raising generations of Americans. And by the way, if you didn’t have that, if you didn’t have the public education system, you wouldn’t find anybody who would buy into what the Democrats are saying today.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah. And keep in mind folks, this is at a time where, and I’m not exaggerating, and this is a true statement. This is a time where a lot of them didn’t go past the eighth grade. They were out doing things on farms and other things at a very early age. And keep in mind, a lot of folks back then got married at age 16. They were working the farm at 14. And eighth grade education was about all the farther they went. But I will tell you this. If you look at the schoolwork they were doing back then and you looked at what they were doing in eighth grade, I highly doubt that college graduates today could even accomplish what they were doing in eighth grade at that time. So they couldn’t. They believed highly in education. So it wasn’t that they didn’t believe in education, but they believed in doing it differently than we’re doing today.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, but that’s the whole fallacy, John. People on the left basically say, if you do not believe in government education, you don’t believe in education.
SPEAKER 06 :
No, quite opposite, actually. I actually believe in real education, and it’s not government run.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 06 :
Because you’re better off when it’s not.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, they always add or subtract words to deceive. It’s like they always talk about immigration, never say the word of the legal.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right. Great point, Andy. Great point. No, you’re exactly right. No, no. In fact, it’s funny because can I speak for the founding fathers? You know, here’s how this works. I can’t speak for them because I didn’t know any of them personally, but you can go back in history. and look at a lot of things that they said, which, by the way, folks, you can do the same thing with the Apostle Paul, with Jesus Christ himself, with Peter, with others that were around at that time, even though I didn’t know any of those individuals some 2,000-plus years ago. I do know what they wrote. I do know what they thought. I do know what they said at that time because it was all recorded. And guess what? The same thing is true with our founding fathers. And no, I’m not comparing the founding fathers to Jesus Christ or the apostles or the disciples in not any way, shape, or form.
SPEAKER 05 :
No, you’re just talking about we know them from the writings.
SPEAKER 06 :
But I’m just saying from history, you can tell what somebody would have thought or done. For example, I could be dead and gone in 10 years. Yet people could go back and listen to the recordings of this show and get a pretty good idea of what I thought about all sorts of different things in life, Andy.
SPEAKER 05 :
Of course.
SPEAKER 06 :
And you could judge what John would think about such and such just based upon the things that I’ve said over the past 12 years here on air.
SPEAKER 05 :
Easily.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s how that works. Right. Not that hard, Andy. But yet we have the left that will want to interject and or mess up what our founding fathers did and what they stood for and so on, mainly because they have a hatred for them.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right.
SPEAKER 06 :
They wish they never would have existed.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, they’re white men. Correct. Colonial men, by the way.
SPEAKER 06 :
Colonialists, Andy.
SPEAKER 05 :
They’re colonialists who drove the Indians off their property.
SPEAKER 06 :
Which, by the way, nothing could be farther from the truth.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, there are some real problems with that. But I mean, they basically see the… Here’s what blows my mind, John. They see the foundations and the foundings of this nation as evil.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, the left does. The biggest thing they hate. The left wants this country eliminated.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, there are so many things they hate about Donald Trump. And by the way, at times Donald Trump makes it easy when he does a certain tweet or a text. A lot of those I really enjoy. But there are times when he’s not measuring it, when he’s not, you know, making sure. But here is the number one thing that the left hates about him. They hate America. They don’t like America succeeding. They don’t like America. They want America to have to pay huge tariffs all around the world and let everybody come sell their stuff here. Why? They want us to go under.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right. They want us done.
SPEAKER 05 :
They want us done. They don’t believe we belong here. They want us to burn to the ground.
SPEAKER 06 :
And I’ve heard this even from different lefties that text into my show. They want a new constitution. They want things revamped. They don’t believe that things are the way they should. If we don’t revamp it, we won’t stand the test of time, which, by the way, is completely opposite of what we’ve done up until this point. We’re now going to celebrate 250 years this year. Right. And the reality is, yes, it has stood the test of time, even though the left has tried to corrupt it over and over and over again. And they’ve done everything possible to try to decimate the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The reality is it still stands.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, of course it does. It’s beautiful. It’s a fantastic document. But the left hates it.
SPEAKER 06 :
OK, let’s let’s move into something that I wasn’t going to cover, but let’s do it. OK, and I’m probably going to shock some folks on this one. All right. Let’s talk about the fact right now in the statehouse that the Democrats. are trying to push through legislation, and by the way, probably will, that would essentially make Colorado or would having Colorado prostitution be legal across the state, the entire state. That’s essentially what’s happening right now. And I’ve read a lot of different things on this. And our side, of course, we are irate. And I’m going to give you my opinion of this here in just a moment, which will probably ruffle some feathers because some of you probably won’t like what I’m going to say. But here’s my point on this whole bill. I don’t care. I don’t care. Go for it. I do care. It matters not to me at all.
SPEAKER 05 :
And on the one hand, I don’t, but on the other, I do. Can I explain?
SPEAKER 06 :
Go ahead, and I’ll explain my side.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay. Well, first of all, on the one hand, I agree with you. I think we’re going to have the same thing. It’s a product. You do what you want with your body. You sell what you want. It is the free market. If people want to buy it, that’s up to them, okay? And you should have the freedom to do as you wish. It’s just like, you know, some girls are strippers, and that’s legal. Right. So this is basically that, but only a couple steps further.
SPEAKER 06 :
Correct.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, to sex. So, you know, on the one hand, I do believe in personal freedom, not only of the person providing the service, but of those buying it. However, I look at drugs, okay? And I look at, you know, girls, I guess, stripping in one of these places downtown or whatever. I look at those as the… alcohol or maybe marijuana of that kind of lifestyle. But I look at selling your body for sex. And the biggest problem to me is that I think it’s too dangerous for society. And that I believe that too many people, you know, look, John, a marriage can go through good and bad times, right?
SPEAKER 06 :
Right.
SPEAKER 05 :
It is very helpful for marriages when they’re going through a hard time to not have that be available.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, and here’s my flip side to that. I’m not disagreeing. And I don’t disagree with those that talk about how, you know, well, this has an effect upon the sex trafficking end of things and so on. And let me explain on that because I disagree. And by the way, I think that’s a poor argument on our side because at the end of the day, sex trafficking is going to happen whether prostitution is legalized in Colorado or not. In fact, I might go one step further and say you might even be able to regulate – more of what’s happening in that area by actually making it legal across the entire state versus the way it is now. And let me explain. Because of resources and the fact that they’re very limited. And I will tell you straight up right now, and maybe this is why I feel this way, I have two cousins that were murdered in Thornton. The bottom line is there are no suspects. That particular police department, in my opinion, Thornton PD, is worthless. They’re more worried about writing traffic tickets than they actually are finding the killers, in my opinion. And here’s where I’m going with this. The amount of time and resources that I feel are run in sting operations on massage parlors and this, that, and the other, I just feel like law enforcement in general could be put to much, much, much better use when it comes to things that happen in society than doing some of the things that they do along those lines. That’s my opinion there.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay, and you can make an argument for that, and I can understand that, okay? And by the way, yeah, I never thought of the trafficking thing as a good argument.
SPEAKER 06 :
It’s a stupid argument, by the way.
SPEAKER 05 :
But let’s get back to the drugs for a second.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 05 :
Um, there are people who can be casual users of alcohol and marijuana. Correct. Right.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 05 :
Which by the way, I don’t think marijuana legalizing it has been good for Colorado. I think it’s very detrimental. I agree with that. Having said that there are casual users, but how many casual users are there of crack?
SPEAKER 06 :
No, you’re pretty hardcore for using crack.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right, crack, heroin, and things like this. There are drugs out there that once you get on them, you become… let’s face it, you become a threat to society.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, meth is one of those, for example.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right, meth, same thing. And when I look at, you know, there are guys, you know, bachelor party or whatever, guys who go down and they hire a stripper or whatever, and they casually do this, ha-ha, they have fun, and then they go on with their lives, okay? But prostitution and what that would do to marriages is, I think is going to be so damaging. So for me, allowing something as damaging as prostitution to be available when we know that marriages are going to go through good and bad times, having that available for the guys and the girls, by the way, to me is too much of a threat Just like the higher drugs are too much of a threat in our society, I think having legalized prostitution is too much of a threat in our society. I guess what I’m really saying, John, is this. I don’t think our society, especially with the condition of marriages as they are already, I don’t think our society could handle it.
SPEAKER 06 :
By the way, not a bad argument. I think I would come back and say the reality is if somebody’s already in that position, the reality is what they’re going to do is what they’re going to do regardless of whether it’s legal or not. And by the way, there’s so many things that married men can do even without going out and having to purchase sex that they can do all sorts of things.
SPEAKER 05 :
They can have an affair with a girl.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, reality is they’re going to do what they’re going to do anyway, so I don’t know that that’s a huge argument.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, but to be able to simply pay somebody for it Wow. I’m sorry, but I don’t think our society, I don’t think our culture can handle it. I think if it’s legalized, I think it’s going to be tremendously damaging.
SPEAKER 06 :
And again, I don’t know what the stats show in places like Nevada where there are portions. Keep in mind, everybody says, well, you know, we would be the first state in the union to have legalized prostitution. And that’s true because, again, there are places like Nevada where it’s isolated in certain areas and you can have prostitution in certain areas of Nevada, but it’s not statewide. There are still a lot of areas in Nevada where it’s not legal. And again, folks, I personally… I don’t really have a dog in this fight. I know it’s really upsetting for a lot of folks on the right because they feel like it’s going to add to the trafficking situation. I would tell you straight up that I don’t think that’s the case at all. I don’t think that has anything to do with it. I’m not saying the Democrats are right. I’m just one where personally, I think there’s other things that law enforcement could be doing rather than worrying about who’s paying for sex.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, and, John, I will say this. In terms of pure personal liberty, you’re actually right. You’re on the right side. I’m just saying threat level, various liberties I think can create, just like crack cocaine and so forth. And, you know, I would use as an example Amsterdam, okay? They obviously have a legalized – A red light district, right. Yeah, Amsterdam’s a mess. We can’t look at this and say, well, gee, because the cops don’t have to focus on this, they can focus elsewhere. That hasn’t fixed Amsterdam. They’re a mess.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, but my argument to that would be, yeah, but they have a completely different base structure that we talked about even a few minutes ago than what we have here as well.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, and I would agree with that. I would. I’m just saying, I don’t think it’s a fix. I just, once again, in terms of personal liberty, I’m with you. In terms of, well, then the cops, we don’t have to use cops. I don’t know how much we even use cops to go after this stuff anyway. You know what?
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s something I probably can ask. I know several different officers out there I can actually find out.
SPEAKER 05 :
I know they bust hookers along Colfax or whatever.
SPEAKER 06 :
Personally, I think we spend, in my opinion, far more on that and even traffic mitigation versus actually finding real criminals, but that’s a whole other conversation.
SPEAKER 05 :
You see, in my opinion, John, the biggest problem with the cops here, and this is a different issue, maybe we can talk about this in the last segment, the biggest problem with the cops in America and in places like Colorado is all they’re doing is giving out tickets because all they’re doing is raising revenue.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, because they have to for their particular government agency. That’s exactly right, Andy. Agree with that 100%. And by the way,
SPEAKER 05 :
They’re not enforcing crime very much.
SPEAKER 06 :
I know individual officers, by the way, that would sentiment and agree with everything Andy and I just said, that, by the way, hate that system. They despise it. They want to bust crime. Yeah, they despise the fact they have a quota they have to reach on writing tickets daily, and yes, there is a quota.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah. Oh, yes, there is.
SPEAKER 06 :
Oh, there’s a quota. Trust me, there is.
SPEAKER 05 :
It’s ridiculous.
SPEAKER 06 :
It is absolutely ridiculous, Andy. So, all right, we’ll come right back. We’ll keep talking. Ridgeline Auto Brokers coming up next. If you’re looking for a new used car, Ridgeline Auto Brokers is the place to go. You can shop online at RidgelineAutoBrokers.com.
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SPEAKER 15 :
It’s time to leave your safe space. This is Rush to Reason on KLZ 560.
SPEAKER 06 :
All right, we are back. Rush to Reason, Denver’s Afternoon Rush, KLZ 560. Andrew and Greeley, go ahead, Andrew. Hey, Johnny, Andy, how are you guys doing? Good, how are you, sir?
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, not too bad. Just kind of calling in about the topic at hand with the prosecution thing. Yes. I mean, like, as you know, any adult, you can go ahead and do whatever you want. I don’t really care. But then it’s just when the addiction and that kind of stuff clicks. and now it comes out of my tax dollars that I have to pay for your problem.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, and I guess my take back to that would be, not arguing, but just giving you guys my side of things, my feeling, Andrew, is those sorts of addictions and things that are there between pornography and everything else that we have, it’s already there. I don’t see this changing that.
SPEAKER 05 :
We can’t legislate away.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, you can’t legislate morality.
SPEAKER 04 :
No, that’s fair. Yeah, I can get that. Yeah, it’s just, and I feel like you should have the right to choose, but then you can’t bank on me to save you later.
SPEAKER 06 :
And by the way, Andrew, I agree with you on that 1,000%. I am not arguing that at all. I think where I come from, and again, maybe because it’s so close to home on my cousin’s murder and the fact that we have a police department that literally has done absolutely nothing, in my opinion, to solve a crime that was a double homicide that to me looks like it’s pretty easy to solve at the end of the day, Andrew. I’m not a policeman, but good grief, how hard is this? And yet we’re running around trying to figure out who’s a John and who’s a prostitute and do this and do that. I mean, to me, just my take on things, there’s bigger fish to fry.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, I can’t disagree with that at all. I mean. Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, it is what it is. We’re all consenting adults, I hope, you know, in all cases.
SPEAKER 06 :
And really quick, going back to the whole argument that our side throws out that this just creates more sex trafficking. Actually, Andrew, there might even be an argument. And this is where I might agree with some Democrats on Capitol Hill right now here in Colorado. There’s even arguments that would say, no, actually, it might even make it go the other way around because right now it’s so lucrative because it is illegal and the price goes up and so on and so forth. You actually legalize it. Prices come down. And at the end of the day, it actually might cure some of it, not encourage it.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. Yeah. No, I can see that, too, because like you said, I mean, I think regulation does help monitor a lot of it. You know, it’s not a complete black market.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, and again, I know people are going to come back and say, yeah, well, if you look at the marijuana trade in Colorado, what’s happened there? Is there still a big black market of marijuana? Yeah, because the mistake that happened there on the state level, Andrew, is they made legal marijuana so expensive that the black market comes along with a much better price in its supply and demand and cost effectiveness at the end of the day. So, of course, the black market has done well because the state screwed up the pricing structure of marijuana in Colorado.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, and would you say that’s more or less tax-related or actual cost of the product related?
SPEAKER 06 :
Tax-related. They’ve got to tax so high that they’ve driven the price up to the point. And the regulation side of things, they’ve got it regulated so heavily that these guys don’t have any choice but to charge a higher price.
SPEAKER 05 :
John, I’ve got to bring in a touch of reality here, though, a touch of reality. I don’t know the Thornton Police Department at all. I know you’ve experienced them. John, if you think that not having to go after hookers would suddenly free them up to where they would be stopping all the crimes, you know what they do? They would get more tickets.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, no, I’m not saying that. My point is, I just feel like when it comes to that particular topic, and I’m with Andrew, you as well, and Andy as far as the consenting adult end of things go, I just feel like at the end of the day, police resources could be spent in other manners than dinking around with that. That’s just my opinion.
SPEAKER 04 :
No, yeah, I agree. I think there’s much, much bigger fish to fry, like you mentioned, with actual homicides and stuff like that, that they need to be putting effort into.
SPEAKER 06 :
I mean, you look at, Andrew, what we’ve got going on in Colorado and the gang-related end of things and the reality that a lot of these police officers know where these things are at. And by the way, to Andy’s point earlier, don’t want a quota for ticket writing. They’d rather go in there and clean up some of those things. Yeah, we have officers that really want to do the right thing, but they’re mandated to go do other things because we’ve got city councils and others telling them what to go do.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think their hands are kind of tied. Exactly. You know, in a lot of situations.
SPEAKER 06 :
Absolutely. But no. Great point, Andrew. No, I appreciate that. Thanks for the phone call. Not arguing. I mean.
SPEAKER 05 :
And John, I agree. It’s not the cops. It’s the politicians.
SPEAKER 06 :
Exactly right. And I agree with Andrew. I mean, I also don’t want to create an issue whereby we’ve got a bunch of addicted individuals that you and I, Andy, now as taxpayers and Andrew are having to go back in and cover the cost of. But, you know, here’s the reality of that, I think, as well. Given where we’re at with the Internet. and what it provides as far as all of that goes, the reality is, Andy, that sexual addiction is going to be there regardless of whether prostitution is legal or not.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, yeah, sexual addiction is always there. But here’s a question. What about disease, okay, spreading disease? Well, we’d make sure that they’re regulated and these girls don’t have – oh, come on. You can’t regulate them that they all won’t have diseases. And here’s the big thing. What guy is going to admit, hey – I got a disease from this girl who’s a legal prostitute. I’m going to sue. Who’s going to do that?
SPEAKER 06 :
Probably not very many. And again, as far as that goes.
SPEAKER 05 :
So that could be a real problem.
SPEAKER 06 :
No, it could be. And you bring up a great point. I don’t have an answer to that. I don’t know exactly what their thought process is in, quote, unquote, regulating. And I always hate that word, by the way, because every time regulation comes along, it just makes things typically worse. And I’ll be straight up honest. I have not read through the entire bill that is here in Colorado when it comes to prostitution. I can also tell you that my two cohorts in NCR would probably differ with me immensely on my particular take on this. But again, I’m just one, folks, where I don’t really have a dog in this fight. I think the arguments that we’re throwing out as conservatives when it comes to this are completely backwards. I don’t think they’re good arguments. And here’s the reality, folks. Unless you have a really good argument to go against this, we’re going to lose this one. But it’s going to happen anyways. And the argument that it’s going to increase sex trafficking, by the way, is a dumb argument.
SPEAKER 05 :
No, I don’t use that.
SPEAKER 06 :
And that’s a bad argument because Andy’s argument is better than what the sex trafficking one is.
SPEAKER 05 :
Oh, yeah, I wouldn’t use that. I’ll be honest. I hadn’t really thought much about the topic because – I haven’t either until – Well, it’s not like I’m going to use that.
SPEAKER 06 :
Me neither. I mean, at the end of the day, it’s a non-issue for me.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, but I will say this, though. I do believe – and I will stick with this – that it’s too dangerous of a thing to have available in our society. I don’t think marriage in America today can handle having this available. I don’t think it can because, John, there are too many marriages who go through a bad series of weeks or whatever, and to have that available, guess what? That’s going to destroy that marriage for good.
SPEAKER 06 :
You could be right. Again, that’s an argument I really hadn’t thought of, mainly because in my mind, I mean, that’s not an area I would ever go to no matter what, but I’m different probably.
SPEAKER 05 :
Basically, that’s sexual crack, okay? That’s not, oh, gee, he looked at some naughty pictures or went to a strip joint once or whatever.
SPEAKER 06 :
I agree. I understand what you’re saying.
SPEAKER 05 :
You do that once, you’re on crack, and boy, oh, boy, and your marriage is done. Probably.
SPEAKER 06 :
By the way, for those of you listening that are going to go against this bill and try to testify and do some things along those lines, which some of you listening probably are, Andy’s argument, honestly, is better than you saying that sex trafficking is going to increase.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, I don’t see how it’s going to increase sex trafficking.
SPEAKER 06 :
Those of you that are going down that path, that is a really poor argument, and you’re not going to get anywhere with that argument.
SPEAKER 05 :
And really quick here, John, because when you’re trafficking individuals, you’re already breaking the law, so you’re certainly not going to worry about, gee, is prostitution illegal?
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, you don’t care. That doesn’t make any sense. No. And by the way, that is an entirely different spectrum. of services that are being provided. And again, I’m not in that world, so I don’t know this to a T, but I will tell you that it’s an entirely different avenue. Maybe that’s a better word that I should use, Andy, when it comes to that versus somebody going to a brothel in Nevada and paying for sex.
SPEAKER 05 :
Right.
SPEAKER 06 :
You know, two completely different avenues when it’s all said and done.
SPEAKER 05 :
I agree. I do.
SPEAKER 06 :
So those of you that are against this, all I’m saying is you need to tighten up your arguments because just claiming that it’s going to increase sex trafficking is really a poor argument in my opinion. And I don’t think it’s going to get you very far down at the statehouse. And I would also say this. Buckle up, because I’ll be shocked if this doesn’t make it through, because we don’t have a say. They control everything, Andy. That’s the problem. We go all the way back to some of the things we’ve talked about earlier in today’s program. When we don’t have a seat at the table, none of this matters.
SPEAKER 05 :
No, I totally agree.
SPEAKER 06 :
And we don’t have a seat at the table.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, they’re going to do whatever they’re going to do. And by the way, if you want to stop sex trafficking, you’re not going to do it by stopping bills like this. You’re going to do it with more Tom Homans.
SPEAKER 06 :
And what really got me going on this is I saw a post the other day where somebody was accusing Victor Marks, who, again, I have no dog in the fight for Victor one way or the other. But I saw a post the other day that they were being accusatory of him because he wasn’t down at the Capitol testifying against this. And frankly, if I were him, I wouldn’t either because you’re wasting your time.
SPEAKER 05 :
It is a waste of time.
SPEAKER 06 :
You have no seat at the table, so why testify about anything? It’s not going to change anything.
SPEAKER 05 :
They want him to scream in the wind when he has no power. He wants to raise money to try to win.
SPEAKER 06 :
There you go. All right. We’ll be back right after this. Finish things out. Cub Creek Heating and Air Conditioning up next. Make an appointment online for that furnace tune-up special. $56 off. Call them today. Find them at klzradio.com.
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SPEAKER 14 :
We don’t yell at you. We inform you. Now, back to Rush to Reason.
SPEAKER 06 :
All right, that’s it for today. I appreciate you, Andy. And for those of you listening to the last segment, don’t judge me too hard. It’s just my thoughts on things. And, again, I’ll be back tomorrow. Health and wellness in the first hour. We’ll talk gut health, among other things, as well. But enjoy your night, guys. Be safe out there. Myself, Andy, and Charlie signing off. This is Rush to Reason, Denver’s Afternoon Rush, KLZ 560.
