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In this episode, hear impactful discussions on the Supreme Court’s examination of a major parental rights case from Montgomery County, Maryland. Guests like Meg Kilgannon provide a deep dive into what this could mean for religious freedoms and the rights of parents in public education. Additionally, explore the latest on Turkey’s strategic ambitions with insights from Dr. Michael Rubin, shedding light on what this means for regional stability and international alliances.
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From the heart of our nation’s capital in Washington, D.C., bringing compelling interviews, insightful analysis, taking you beyond the headlines and soundbites into conversations with our nation’s leaders and newsmakers, all from a biblical worldview, Washington Watch with Tony Perkins starts now.
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Critics have attacked my president, President Trump, for starting a trade war in an effort to bring back the jobs of the past, but nothing could be further from the truth. He seeks to rebalance global trade so that America, with friends like India, can build a future worth having for all of our people together.
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That was Vice President JD Vance speaking earlier today in India about U.S.-Indian trade relations. Welcome to Washington Watch. Thanks for tuning in. Vice President Vance’s remarks come as China raises the stakes in the developing trade war with the U.S., threatening retaliation against countries that strike trade deals with the U.S. Asian expert Gordon Chang joins us with more on this unfolding story. And what about India? Does it make a good trade partner for the U.S.? Are its values aligned with the values of America, especially regarding religious freedom? Ohio Congressman Warren Davidson will join me for that discussion. Speaking of foreign affairs, concerns are growing about Turkey and its president.
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Turkey is a great concern in what is happening in Syria now. It’s really concerning in particularly statements and discourse in regards to Jerusalem. These are declarations who are a red line in regards to Israel, but it shows their intention.
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That was Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Sharon Haskell on CBN. We’ll talk Turkey and what it means for regional stability with Michael Rubin, Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. And back here at home, the federal government may soon hit its debt limit earlier than previously projected. Raising the debt ceiling will now be part of the upcoming congressional reconciliation package, adding urgency to getting the measure to the president by Memorial Day. We’ll hear more from North Carolina Congressman Chuck Edwards, a member of the House Budget Committee. And finally, as we discussed here on Washington Watch yesterday, the Supreme Court heard oral arguments today in a major parental rights case out of Maryland.
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Here, Montgomery County offers a free public education to parents only if their children use books featuring same-sex relationships and transgender issues. That burdens parents of multiple faiths whose religious duty is to shield their young children from such content.
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That was Principal Deputy Solicitor General Sarah Harris today before the Supreme Court. Meg Kilgannon will join us shortly with a quick update on the oral arguments. Also this week, we released Session 10 of our God and Government course, The Christian’s Relationship to Civil Government. In this session, I discuss a Christian’s responsibility to respect and obey civil government. because it’s established by God. But then how do we respond when government steps outside of God’s authority? What does that look like? Well, I encourage you to find out. If you don’t have the Stand Firm app, I would encourage you to text the word COURSE to 67742. That’s COURSE to 67742, because the God and Government course is exclusively on the Stand Firm app. Earlier today, the U.S. Supreme Court heard a case that has the potential to have a nationwide impact on the rights of parents and religious exercise, free religious freedom of religion when it comes to exercising that freedom as it pertains to children’s education. This was brought by a group of parents in Montgomery County, Maryland, who are asking the court to decide on this question. Do public schools burden parents’ religious exercise when they compel elementary school students to participate in instruction on gender and sexuality against their parents’ religious convictions and without notice or opportunity to opt out? Joining us now with more on today’s oral arguments is Meg Kilgannon, Senior Fellow for Education Studies here at the Family Research Council. Meg, thanks for joining me again.
SPEAKER 16 :
My pleasure.
SPEAKER 05 :
All right, give us the 30,000-foot view of today’s oral arguments.
SPEAKER 16 :
Well, it was really encouraging. First of all, it was great that we played that clip of Sarah Harris as Solicitor General, because for the past four years, anybody listening to Supreme Court oral arguments was hearing a lot of disturbing arguments made by the Biden administration Solicitor General. So it was a big change, and one in support of these parents, which is so wonderful. So elections do have consequences. But the overall mood of the case and the mood of the justices seemed to me to be in the favor of the parents. I was very glad to hear that.
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Did it appear that as the court wrestled through this and asked questions that they’re recognizing the complications that have been created by the redefinition of marriage in the Obergefell case?
SPEAKER 16 :
Well, I don’t know what could make it more obvious than this kind of case being before them. They do seem to understand that some of the justices were really honing in on definitions. And I’m not a lawyer. I’m not really sure what all the cases were that they were talking about. But they all involve… religious liberty, and some of them involve parental rights. But what they really were honing in on was the fact that there is a health class that includes a sex education segment of it that’s offered for the same age range of students, pre-K to grade six, and that class allows an opt-out, and that is not a burden for the school. So they were really asking the school system to defend the fact that they’ve refused to let these parents have an opt-out for very similar material being presented in, say, English class. So that part of it was very clear, and they don’t seem to be buying Montgomery County’s arguments.
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And this could have implications nationwide, could it not?
SPEAKER 16 :
Absolutely could. It absolutely could. And we’re going to see more of this, Tony, because like you said, we haven’t had this conversation. These are things that have been imposed by the courts in terms of Obergefell and his ramifications. And so we’re going to have to work all of this out.
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Meg Kilgannon, always great to talk with you. Thanks for giving us an update.
SPEAKER 16 :
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER 05 :
Absolutely. And folks, this is an issue to pray about because as the court takes these oral arguments later this week, they’ll probably meet together on Friday. They’ll kind of go through it and they’ll make their decision, even though it won’t be released until June or July. They could make their decision in terms of individual judges very soon. So it’s something to pray about. All right, the Treasury Department is expected to give an update on the federal government’s borrowing limit by next week. Current estimates say the limit will be exhausted as early as this summer, the first part of the summer, which could light a fire for Congress to quickly pass the budget reconciliation package because the debt ceiling increase is going to be in that package. Joining us now to talk more about this, Congressman Chuck Edwards, who serves on the House Budget Committee and the House Appropriations Committee. He represents the 11th Congressional District of North Carolina. Congressman Edwards, welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks for taking time to join us today. Thanks for giving me a chance to visit today. But before we jump into the topic, I want to congratulate you as one of those members of Congress who earlier this month received FRC Actions 100% award for scoring perfect 100% on our scorecard during the 118th Congress. So I just want to say thank you for defending faith, family, and freedom.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, thank you. What an honor to receive your award. And I certainly appreciate the work that you and your entire organization is doing to help keep Congress focused. and be a moral, a moral compass for us.
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Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Let’s talk, let’s talk dollars and cents. The Treasury Department announced, announcement next week will factor in the receipts for the tax year 2024. I was having a brief conversation with the House Speaker about this earlier this week, suggesting that the timetable may be moving up on us and it’s, there’s an urgency for Congress to act. Talk about that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, we’ve certainly seen the need to act. As you know, in the Fiscal Responsibility Act, we raised the debt ceiling to get us through, I believe it was January of this year. We’ve long passed that, and Treasury has been in this shell game that they call using extraordinary measures, which is essentially what we do at home when We’ve got more bills coming in than we have income to pay it. We sit down at the kitchen table and we lay them all out and start shuffling and rearranging and deciding what we’re going to pay and when. We’ve been shuffling now for about six months and it’s time to pay the piper. The bigger issue than that is Congress has got to recognize we are on an unsustainable path in terms of our spending. And I believe the budget resolution that we passed just a few weeks ago will take the first steps in curbing that thirst for debt.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, so all of this is kind of in one package because in the Budget Reconciliation Act are the policies, the initiatives that actually dial back some of the spending. We also have some of the rescissions that will be waiting for Congress when they return. So that is being dealt with. But at the same time, This debt ceiling issue is something that has to be addressed so that the government doesn’t default on its debt. Do you think this is going to create incentive for Republicans to come together? Because, I mean, the margins are very narrow. Do you think you’ll be able to build unity in moving forward?
SPEAKER 04 :
I certainly believe that we’re in a position right now where we’ll be building unity. We have an opportunity. before us right now that we’ve not seen in several decades. Not only with the composition in the Congress, in the House, in the Senate, and President Trump occupying the White House, but we recognize that urgency is like never before. I have a great sense of optimism. I know that many of us are going to disagree on some of the smaller elements. in how we’re going to approach this one big, beautiful bill. But we all recognize the need to get it done. And the time is now.
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Congressman, we just have about two and a half minutes left. I’m going to shift gears for just a moment because I want to ask you about a town hall that you hosted last month in your state, which featured a very vocal crowd. I mean, you’ve got some real issues going on in your district, hit hard by the hurricane, people wanting answers, wanting things done. But there’s also there’s some other stuff going on there. Tell us about your experience and why it’s important to go forward with these town hall meetings.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, there’s many reasons that I’ve decided to go through with the town hall. One is, and you mentioned it, my district has been hit by its largest, most devastating natural disaster in our history. And that’s a time to start pulling people together, talk about the plan moving forward. Another reason is I just want to be accountable to the folks in my district. They need to hear from their representatives in Congress, even though the crowd that was at my town hall was certainly not representative of the district that I served. But more importantly, we’ve got Republicans have a lot to brag about right now. And rather than shine away from those things, I want to embrace them. I want to get out in front of people and talk about the fact that we’ve got a plan to close the border, to get our American energy unleashed, to get our fiscal house in order, and to accomplish all the other things that the American people sent us to Washington, D.C. to do.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, and Congressman, I think it’s important, for the reasons you said, to stand and give an account. But I also think it exposes those who are coming in to create difficulty and are just there to cause problems when, you know, look, we treat them with respect. And, you know, I think they reveal their true motives when we do that. And I have found in my time in office when we had these is that the crowd actually polices itself, and they take care of some of these rebel rousers because they’re there to hear, to get their questions answered, and they’re really not looking for trouble. And so I commend you for continuing on that. in having these town hall meetings. And I do hope that other Republicans will follow your lead. Congressman Edwards, thanks so much for joining us today. And again, congratulations on being a 100 percenter.
SPEAKER 04 :
All right. Thank you. What an honor it is. Thanks.
SPEAKER 05 :
All right, folks. And look, if you get a chance to go to these town hall meetings, go. And maybe you’re just praying for your member or something, but go. Don’t go away. We’re back after this.
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At Family Research Council, we believe religious freedom is a fundamental human right that all governments must protect. That’s why FRC President Tony Perkins went to Capitol Hill to testify on behalf of persecuted Christians in Nigeria. Islamist terror groups target Christians and other religious minorities in Nigeria with brutal violence. Representative Chris Smith, who chaired the hearing, said 55,000 people have been killed and 21,000 abducted in the last five years alone. The congressman also stressed that 89% of Christians in the world who are martyred are from Nigeria.
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Yet the government of Nigeria has failed to make progress against religiously motivated persecution of Christians despite religious freedom being enshrined as an essential human right in their constitution.
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Tony Perkins called for the United States to send an unmistakable message.
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This is systematic religious violence. Nigeria must be redesignated a country of particular concern. The Biden administration’s removal of this designation was a reckless mistake that emboldened the very terrorists who are slaughtering Christians.
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Redesignating Nigeria will enable the U.S. government to pressure Nigerian leaders to protect vulnerable Christians.
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These are not just numbers. These are fathers, their mothers, their children, their families.
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Bishop Wilfred Anagabe risked his life to speak out, sharing firsthand accounts of the danger faced in his church district in central Nigeria.
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We live in fear because at any point it can be our turn to be killed. But to remain silent is to die twice. So I have chosen to speak.
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FRC is calling on President Trump to act now to promote religious freedom around the globe and speak up on behalf of Christians in Nigeria.
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Download the new Stand Firm app for Apple and Android phones today and join a wonderful community of fellow believers. We’ve created a special place for you to access news from a biblical perspective, read and listen to daily devotionals, pray for current events and more. Share the Stand Firm app with your friends, family and church members and stand firm everywhere you go.
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Looking for a trusted source of news that shares your Christian values? Turn to The Washington Stand, your ultimate destination for informed, faith-centered reporting. Our dedicated team goes beyond the headlines, delivering stories that matter most to believers. From breaking events to cultural insights, we provide clear, compassionate coverage through a biblical lens. Discover news you can trust at The Washington Stand, where faith and facts meet every day.
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Welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks for joining us. All right. China has been doubling down on its threats against the U.S. over the tariffs. I mean, it looks like we’re in the midst of a pretty hot trade war. Now what they’re doing is they’re taking aim at other nations. On Monday, a spokesman for the Chinese Ministry of Commerce warned other countries to avoid making trade deals at the expense of China’s interest. If they do, China will, quote, take countermeasures in a resolute and reciprocal manner, end quote. So what can we draw from China’s latest threats? And is this an indication that President Trump’s tariffs are working? Here to discuss this, Asian expert Gordon Chang, distinguished senior fellow at Gatestone Institute and author of several books on China and Chinese-U.S. relations, including his most recent, Plan Red, China’s Project to Destroy America. You can follow him on X at Gordon G. Chang. Gordon, welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much, Tony. All right. Saber rattling. What do we make of this?
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, I think it is saber rattling and I think it is an indication that the Chinese are very worried that President Trump will reorder the global trading system because we’ve got the world’s largest market. We’ve got a lot of leverage in our discussions with the Japanese, the South Koreans, the Vietnamese, Europeans, Italians. And so I think China is worried about being left out in the cold. So therefore, they’re making threats against trade partners. now i don’t think it’s going to work because china is the trade surplus country in the world it last year its global trade surplus was 992.2 billion dollars so that means that there are a lot of reasons why countries around the world want to deal with us because we’re a trade deficit country we got the world’s largest market i think china’s getting a little bit worried right now
SPEAKER 05 :
So what does that look like, these threats that they’re making, these countermeasures to other countries? I mean, what could they do to them?
SPEAKER 06 :
You know, they can do minor things, but ultimately a trade surplus country is very just out of ammunition. And we can see that in our trade relations with what China’s been saying to us recently. Like the embargo on rare earths really is more symbolic than anything else. China tried that in 2010 against Japan and the embargo collapsed in a couple of months. The Japanese found ways around it. We’re doing the same things. Even Boeing. That’s a really hollow threat just because of the way the global airplane market works. You know, you have backlogs of years and years and years. There’s only so much production in the world. Whatever China doesn’t buy from Boeing, Boeing will be able to sell to Airbus’ customers who are not going to wait for 10 years to get an Airbus. Because, you know, if Airbus sells to China, it can’t sell to somebody else. We’ll sell to somebody else. So there’s a lot of things that China’s been huffing and puffing recently, but they really hurt China as much or more than it hurts us.
SPEAKER 05 :
So let’s talk about the the adjusting of this trade imbalance is China. You know, they’re there, as you said, they’re they’re the ones people are buying from. They’re not necessarily buying from others. So, you know, they don’t want to hurt their customers. I mean, that doesn’t make sense. Could this cause others that have manufacturing capacity to increase that capacity to step in if China goes too far?
SPEAKER 06 :
I think yes. And clearly, countries around the world are worried about their own manufacturing, just as President Trump is worried about the state of the American manufacturing sector. So this is a global concern. I think countries around the world have had enough. They’ve got to protect themselves, and they are now starting to impose tariffs. So for instance, India just a day ago slapped 12% tariffs on Chinese steel, or steel in general, But that was really to prevent China from selling to India what it couldn’t sell to the United States. And I think we’re going to see this around the world as countries protect their local markets from what they anticipate to be a flood of Chinese goods.
SPEAKER 05 :
So in part, help me understand what China is doing at the bottom level here is that by threatening these other countries, are they trying to keep these other countries from striking trade deals from the U.S. to step in and provide some of the product that we’re getting from China now, which would then lock China out in the future possibly?
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s exactly what China is worried about, because the trade deals that President Trump is trying to put together probably do a couple of things. But one of them is it makes it more difficult for those countries to trade with China, removes the incentives to do that. And so China is worried that it will not be able it’ll be locked out of markets or that their access to other markets will be reduced. So China is, I think, right now realizing that it’s got to try to intimidate others not to do these deals with the U.S. or not to do deals with the U.S. with provisions of the type I just talked about. So this is now a struggle between Washington and Beijing. You know, we just heard from Treasury Secretary Besant, or at least we’ve heard reports that Besant is saying that there will be a de-escalation of the trade war. I think that’s a little bit premature because we’re not seeing Xi Jinping bending right now. And that’s what’s absolutely necessary for China to be more accommodating, not only with the United States, but with other countries around the world.
SPEAKER 05 :
So what would have been gained if we stopped right now? If the Trump administration said, all right, truce, nothing else. Well, I mean, what would have been gained? Anything?
SPEAKER 06 :
I don’t think anything would be gained because, as Besant mentioned, negotiations with China over a trade deal are going to be a slog, is the term we’ve been hearing last few hours. And that’s certainly true. China is not going to make commitments, and we’ve seen this in other trade deals, where it takes them a very long time to come around. And I think that’s the case now, especially because apparently Besson talked about structural changes in China to increase the consumption sector of the Chinese economy. That’s something Xi Jinping has been extremely reluctant to do. Yes, they’ll make rhetorical flourishes that they’ll do it, but they have not made changes. As a matter of fact, consumption share of the Chinese economy now about 38%. has been declining in recent years, not increasing. So what Besant wants to do with the Chinese economy is extremely hard and probably impossible as long as Xi Jinping is in charge.
SPEAKER 05 :
All right. Just about a minute, just a little less than a minute left. Long slog. I mean, what are we talking about? Is that a year, two years? I mean, how long of a process is that?
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, I wish I knew the answer to that, but it could very well be a year, especially because we’re seeing renegotiation of trade relationships around the world, which means that there are only so many Treasury negotiators which means that we’re going to be prioritizing trade agreements with our friends. We just saw the vice president announce in India where he is that there’s new trade guidelines have been agreed with New Delhi. That’s great news for the U.S.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, yes, maybe we’ll talk about that another day. Gordon, thanks for joining us. Always good to hear you.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you so much, Tony.
SPEAKER 05 :
All right, folks, don’t go away. We’re going to maybe talk a little bit about India on the other side of the break. Don’t go away.
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Everything we do begins as an idea. Before there can be acts of courage, there must be the belief that some things are worth sacrificing for. Before there can be marriage, there is the idea that man should not be alone. Before there was freedom, there was the idea that individuals are created equal. It’s true that all ideas have consequences, but we’re less aware that all consequences are the fruit of ideas. Before there was murder, there was hate. Before there was a Holocaust, there was the belief by some people that other people are undesirable. Our beliefs determine our behavior, and our beliefs about life’s biggest questions determine our worldview. Where did I come from? Who decides what is right and wrong? What happens when I die? Our answers to these questions explain why people see the world so differently. Debates about abortion are really disagreements about where life gets its value. Debates over sexuality and gender and marriage are really disagreements about whether the rules are made by us or for us. What we think of as political debates are often much more than that. They are disagreements about the purpose of our lives and the source of truth. As Christians, our goal must be to think biblically about everything. Our goal is to help you see beyond red and blue, left and right, to see the battle of ideas at the root of it all. Our goal is to equip Christians with a biblical worldview and help them advance and defend the faith in their families, communities, and the public square. Cultural renewal doesn’t begin with campaigns and elections. It begins with individuals turning from lies to truth. But that won’t happen if people can’t recognize a lie and don’t believe truth exists. We want to help you see the spiritual war behind the political war, the truth claims behind the press release, and the forest and the trees.
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This is Washington Watch. I’m Tony Perkins, your host. Good to have you with us. The website, TonyPerkins.com. Better yet, get the Stand Firm app, and you’ll not only have Washington Watch, you’ll have the Washington Stand and my daily devotional, Stand on the Word. You can find it in the App Store. Stand firm. Yesterday, four Democrat House members arrived in El Salvador’s capital, San Salvador, and met with U.S. Embassy officials to advocate for the release of an illegal immigrant, Kilmar Garcia, who was deported there by the Trump administration. So why are Democrats going to such great lengths to advocate on behalf of someone who is living illegally in our country? So here to discuss this and a bit more, Congressman Warren Davidson. He serves on the House Financial Services Committee and the Foreign Affairs Committee. He represents Ohio’s 8th Congressional District. Congressman Davidson, welcome back to Washington Watch. Always good to see you. Always an honor. Thank you, Tony. Hey, before we jump into the immigration issue, I want to I was just talking with Gordon Chang about China, the trade war there earlier today. The vice president, J.D. Vance, another Ohioan, was in India touting, you know, relationships, a good friendship with India in terms of trade and other aspects. I just want to throw this out there. I’m a bit concerned. I’m not sure that they’re a great trade partner when we look at their human rights record. When I was on the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, we constantly recommended them for a country of particular concern because of the tremendous threat that Christians have in that country. I mean, do they make a great trade partner when they have such a record, a dismal record on human rights?
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Human rights always used to feature prominently in our negotiations with countries. It was always part of our diplomacy. And I think with India, they are a close friend. We should build an alliance with them. Our interests are very closely aligned. And so they make a good prospect for an ally. But our cultures are pretty different. And part of our relationship should be, well, OK, you don’t have to totally accept our culture, but you shouldn’t be hostile to it. And religious freedom is central to what makes America America. We certainly would love to see that be more accepted in India. And I think their people would, too. I mean, there’s a reason a lot of people leave India for the opportunities here in America. So there’s a large Indian expat community here in America. They send a lot of money back home to India. And I think they stay in America for a lot of reasons. Part of that may be religious freedom.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, we certainly shouldn’t be hesitant, I think, to talk about those American values such as religious freedom. I think it’s when we talk about doing business, being yoked with another country, we need to talk about all those issues. All right. I’m going to shift back to El Salvador. Why are Democrats there to advocate on behalf of someone who was living illegally here in our country?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, I think they’ve picked this El Salvador man and described him as a Maryland man because they think, boy, here’s a guy that was with a deportation order two separate times, living illegally in the country, aligned as an MS-13 member, not just here in the United States, but in El Salvador, which probably has a lot to do with why he left El Salvador. And in the first place, and why a citizen of El Salvador is locked up in Seacott. He’s not locked up there because he’s an American citizen. He’s locked up there because he’s an El Salvadoran and a known affiliate of MS-13, if not actual member of MS-13. They think that if they can win this case, if they can keep him here, well, then effectively they can keep anybody here. And, you know, they facilitated an invasion of our country, open borders. They want to treat non-citizens, even illegal residents, as criminals. You know, in the census, they want to draw congressional maps and everything, count them in the Senate, in the census, just like American citizens. They want birthright citizenship for their kids, even if neither parent is an American citizen. And just like in this case with this El Salvador citizen, they want adjudication, including years of appeals on a case-by-case basis. And if they can do that, they can essentially stop us from reversing the invasion they facilitated.
SPEAKER 05 :
So, Congressman, do they see their opening in pressing this case because the Supreme Court has stepped in and told the Trump administration to return this individual?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, they saw the opening before that. That’s how the case wound up before the court. It’s just mind-blowing. I mean, even if you accept the premise that somehow it’s constitutional for the Biden administration to facilitate an invasion of our country, it’s constitutional to count non-citizens as residents for purposes of drawing congressional maps, that somehow it’s constitutional to have birthright citizenship when neither parent’s a citizen. And the Supreme Court’s gonna hear that case on May 15th. I wanna be there for it. Somehow all that’s constitutional. I mean, wouldn’t you want to change it? And in fact, Democrats are down there in El Salvador lobbying to preserve that view of the law in America. They’re fighting in every court they can to preserve that twisted view of our Constitution. I think the people of this country stand with people like President Trump. It was a big factor in the election to say, you have to be here legally. You’re welcome to come, but you have to do it legally.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, there’s no question about it. This was, if not the number one issue, it was certainly among the top three issues driving voters in the presidential election. We just have about a minute left. Do you see a collision course coming between the administration and the Supreme Court on this?
SPEAKER 03 :
I hope not with the Supreme Court. I mean, clearly there’s a collision course with the district courts. It’s disappointing to see the Supreme Court’s ruling. I think Alito might not have been blunt enough in rebuking some of his colleagues on the Supreme Court. Hopefully they land on the side of common sense. And look, I went to business school, not law school. But I mean, I think the basic premise has to be that there’s a different expectation for American citizens than people that are here illegally and, you know, wanted essentially fugitives in El Salvador. I mean, there has to be a different standard of justice.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, we will soon see. Congressman Warren Davidson, always great to have you on the program. Thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you, Tony. All right, folks, we’re going to continue our conversation on international issues right now. We’re going to talk about the coming up next. We’re going to talk about concerns over Turkey and where they are setting their sights. So don’t go away. More Washington Watch straight ahead when we return from this break.
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What is God’s role in government? What does the separation of church and state really mean? And how does morality shape a nation? President John Adams said our Constitution was made only for moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Join Family Research Council for God and Government, a powerful 13-part series that equips you with biblical truth to engage in today’s most pressing debates, from the Ten Commandments in classrooms to the immigration crisis of America. We’ll uncover the foundations of our nation’s history and why it’s relevant for today. Defend God’s plan for government because faith and freedom were never meant to be separate. New episodes available each Monday. To view the series on the Stand Firm app, text COURSE to 67742.
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How should Christians think about the thorny issues shaping our culture? How should Christians address deceitful ideas like transgenderism, critical theory, or assisted suicide? How can Christians navigate raising children in a broken culture, the war on gender roles, or rebuilding our once great nation? Outstanding is a podcast from The Washington Stand dedicated to these critical conversations. Outstanding seeks to tear down what our corrupt culture lifts up with an aim to take every thought and every idea captive to the obedience of Christ. Whether policies or partisan politics, whether conflict in America or conflict abroad, join us and our guests as we examine the headlines through the lens of Scripture and explore how Christians can faithfully exalt Christ in all of life follow outstanding on your favorite podcast app and look for new episodes each week
SPEAKER 05 :
All right, starting April 29th, we’ll be in the book of Daniel in our journey through the Bible, Stand on the Word, our reading plan. And in anticipation of that, we have a new study guide, Daniel, Visions and Valor. It’s a great resource. It’s a great resource for anyone as they navigate through tough times, face pressures, challenges, and worries. Basically, it’s great for life because life is filled with those challenges and pressures. So if you’d like to get a copy, text Daniel to 67742, Daniel to 67742 to order your copy of our new study guide. Speaking of the word. Our word for today comes from Ezekiel 43, where the prophet is given a glimpse of the future temple, the place where God’s glory will dwell among his people. And he said, Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile my holy name, they nor their kings by their harlotry or with their carcasses of their kings on their high places. When they set their threshold by my threshold and their doorpost by my doorpost, with only a wall between me and them, they defile my holy name by the abominations they committed. Therefore, I consumed them in my anger. Now let them put away their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far from me, and I will dwell in their midst forever.” You see, idolatry erected a wall between God and his people. And to experience his abiding presence, the idols must be torn down and the false gods cast away. Only then can we truly dwell with him. For more on our journey through the Bible, text Bible to 67742. That’s Bible to 67742. This past weekend, Turkey’s intelligence chief, Ibrahim Kalin, met with Hamas leaders to discuss how to deliver aid to Gaza as the war that Hamas started on October the 7th continues to rage. And the talks were held as reports say Turkish President Erdogan has set his sights on Israel. What could this potentially mean for our nation’s closest ally? Here to discuss this and more, Dr. Michael Rubin, Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and Director of Policy Analysis at the Middle East Forum. Dr. Rubin, welcome back to Washington Watch. Thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER 18 :
Hey, thanks for having me. It’s always great to be here.
SPEAKER 05 :
So first, unpack for us why President Erdogan, his tenure in office has been so troubling on multiple fronts.
SPEAKER 18 :
Well, look, President Erdogan is already past the two-decade mark in his leadership of Turkey. When he came into office, people thought maybe he’d be a pragmatist, that he could combine Islamic democracy. Look, if you have to put an adjective before democracy, it’s not a democracy. That was a mistake of the George W. Bush administration in which I played a minor role. At any rate, As he’s consolidated power, his true ideology has come through. He’s a Muslim Brotherhood acolyte through and through. And in that regard, he really wants nothing more than the defeat of the United States, the defeat of Europe, and the eradication of Israel.
SPEAKER 05 :
There are some that say that he would like to reestablish the Ottoman Empire. He’s certainly reaching around the world and certainly in that region to reestablish his influence and the influence of Turkey.
SPEAKER 18 :
You’re absolutely right. Look, some may say he wants to reestablish the Ottoman Empire because his own people, his own aides do. When you look at the maps in the Turkish Defense Ministry, for example, they include much of the former Ottoman Empire. The problem he has had so far is that the remembrance of the Ottoman Empire is much fonder inside Turkey than among its subject peoples in the Arab world and broader. And so you’re starting to get a reaction in Greece, in Cyprus, in the Balkans, even in places like Syria, which are now a de facto Turkish proxy of people pushing back on Turkey trying to almost establish a colonial presence. But, you know, this is what we’re up against. And you can’t beat back this threat if we refuse to acknowledge it.
SPEAKER 05 :
What do you say in terms of his comments to suggest that he’s eyeing Jerusalem, when you look at him and those around him making these comments about Israel?
SPEAKER 18 :
Look, I’m not as worried about Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s rhetoric. as I am about his action. And the fact of the matter is, his actions are far more disturbing than even his words are. He’s just saying what he’s doing, but so many of the recent Hamas attacks on Israel, both before and after October 7th, 2023, were actually planned or financed from Istanbul, Turkey, from the former seat of the Ottoman Caliphate. And so that is something that has really raised the concern in counter-terrorism circles, not only in the United States and in Israel, but throughout much of the Arab world as well.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, Dr. Rubin, speaking of that, I mean, they had the meeting I mentioned with Hamas this past weekend. We last time I was in Israel just a couple of months ago, speaking with officials that Turkey is smuggling weapons, advanced weapons into Judea and Samaria to be utilized there by a Palestinian activist. How can we, on one hand, be in relationship with Turkey through NATO, and then them actually targeting and undermining our closest ally?
SPEAKER 18 :
Let me unpack that a little bit, because there’s a lot of issues you just touched upon. When it comes to Judea and Samaria or the West Bank, the reason why so much is in play right now is Mahmoud Abbas, the chairman of the Palestinian Authority, is 89 years old, and he’s in his 20th year of his four-year presidential term. So everyone is jockeying for control after he passes away. and Turkey first and foremost among them, supporting Hamas and other factions in the West Bank that would mirror what exists in the Gaza Strip.
SPEAKER 05 :
So let me stop you right there. So is this another Syria-type undertaking by Turkey? As they were helping undermine Assad, are they going to move in a vacuum once we see the death of the Palestinian leader?
SPEAKER 18 :
That’s an astute observation. I think it’s correct. The difference is the world, or at least Israel, is much more aware now, even if they had let their guard down on October 7th, 2023. They’re not foolish about Turkey. And this goes to your previous question. How can Turkey be a NATO ally and act like this? And the problem we have in Washington across administrations is too often we want to calibrate our policy towards the way things used to be or towards the wishful thinking of what we wish they would be rather than calibrate our policies towards reality. You know, Tony, the statistic I always give to let people know how much Turkey has changed actually comes from Turkey’s own interior ministry. And that is, since Recep Tayyip Erdogan came to power in Turkey, the murder rate of women inside Turkey has increased 1,400%, and that’s because of the sense of impunity that religious conservatives have now as they conduct honor crimes and so forth inside Turkey.
SPEAKER 05 :
That brings me to my next point that I was going to ask you, the next question I was going to ask is, When we look at that, thinking we want to reestablish what used to be, there’s a different ideology driving Turkey when we thought they were moving toward a more secular democracy. And they were for a time. But they’re now, I think, digging deep into those ideological roots of Islam. For some reason, the West has a hard time understanding what is unfolding before our very eyes.
SPEAKER 18 :
Well, I think there’s also a psychological component here on the part of Turkey’s leader, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, which in my view is somewhat similar to what we see inside Iran with Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei. And that is when you have dedicated your whole life to this noxious form of Islamism, and you want to see nothing more than the destruction of Israel, and you realize that your own mortality is looming, then you want to put your plans into action now. You realize you don’t have time to wait. And so what I see in both Iran and in Turkey is a sense of impatience, which is making the situation far more dangerous.
SPEAKER 05 :
Okay, so let me circle back around to what I asked before. NATO. Turkey is a part of NATO. We’re a part of NATO. I mean, that’s a close relationship. We come to one another’s aid. Israel’s our closest ally. It is clear, it’s not a secret, that Turkey is undermining the security and the well-being of Israel.
SPEAKER 18 :
Okay, here’s the problem. NATO, which Turkey joined in 1952, is governed by consensus. So Turkey can be the Trojan horse inside NATO. Why don’t we just kick Turkey out? Because there’s no mechanism inside NATO in order to kick someone out. In the past, France has removed itself. Greece has removed itself. But in those cases, it was voluntary. What I believe is happening right now is Turkey sees that it can do more for our enemies and for its own noxious ideology by remaining inside NATO to do two things. One is to block consensus and therefore basically paralyze the organization. The second actually is even scarier, and that has to do with its nuclear program. Turkey is opening a Russian-built nuclear reactor this year. Now, when you had Iraq try to build a nuclear reactor in 1981, Israel took that out and thank God they did. In 2007, Israel eliminated Syria’s North Korean-built plutonium processing plant. But now we have Turkey doing basically what Iran has done. But the difference is with Turkey is that they can hide behind NATO’s Article 5. They can hide behind the sense that if they are attacked, all NATO members have to respond as if they themselves were attacked. And so what I’m afraid is happening is Turkey is using its NATO membership in order to develop a nuclear weapon. And it’s going to remain in NATO until it becomes its own nuclear power. And then all bets are off because, again, Erdogan is acting on almost apocalyptic ideology. He’s no longer grounded in reality.
SPEAKER 05 :
Dr. Rubin, what you’ve just laid out there when Israel, their intelligence, generally speaking, obviously there were some failures on October the 7th. But as it pertains to Iran, they’ve been tracking every move. They’ve been able to keep their nuclear program bottled up by taking it out here and there and setting them back five years, 10 years. Of course, now we’re at this critical point once again. But what you’ve laid out there is Turkey pursuing the same thing, but they can’t be touched by Israel because Israel could then suffer the wrath of all of the allied NATO countries. Do you think that would happen if Israel acted to protect themselves against Turkey and their nuclear plan? Do you think it would trigger a NATO reaction?
SPEAKER 18 :
Well, here are the two things. if you will, points that could actually undermine Turkey’s gamble. Number one, Article 5 only comes into play within NATO if you know who actually took the action. So if Israel doesn’t leak like the United States does, and you have an assassination here or an assassination there of a Turkish nuclear scientist, then Turkey may not be able to gather enough consensus within NATO in order to enact Article 5. And when you actually read the legal document, the legal article, Article 5, you also have to get NATO agreeing that there has been a threat that is an attack. And so it gives NATO sort of other members like the United States, like Germany, like France, a way out to say, you know what, we don’t actually think that this qualifies for Article 5. So Turkey’s taking a gamble that we are going to come to their assistance. I think we should make clear to Turkey that we are not going to do that in advance.
SPEAKER 05 :
All right, Dr. Rubin, we’ve got about three minutes left. I have two questions I want to ask to wrap up. Number one, by Turkey remaining in NATO, is that not devaluing NATO for the purposes of the U.S.?
SPEAKER 18 :
I think it is. And you know what? A lot of Turks say and a lot of Turkey’s cheerleaders say, is, hey, look, Turkey has the second largest army within NATO after the United States. Therefore, it’s too valuable to kick out. But that’s the wrong metric. When you have a conflict with NATO, you have a meeting in Brussels, and each country decides how much they’re going to contribute. What matters is how much each country is going to contribute, not how big their army is on paper. If Turkey only decides to contribute 37 people, it’s not an important country. So we’ve got to stop using this false metric and recognize Turkey is not an asset to NATO. It’s a liability.
SPEAKER 05 :
All right, I’m going to go back to your theory of them using NATO to allow them to advance their nuclear plan or program and to do other things to put themselves in a position of strength. Might that also be, when you look at where Turkey is located geographically, they’re surrounded by basically Islamic nations. There has been a lot of outreach. Are they building their own kind of coalition of Islamic nations?
SPEAKER 18 :
Right now, Turkey is, but it’s less of a coalition than almost like a Chinese style, we are on top and you are our proxies, that you listen to us. So when you look at what Turkey is doing, for example, in Libya or in Somalia or in Syria, they’re not approaching these states as equals. They’re approaching these states as their proxies, and they expect in true Muslim Brotherhood fashion that Turkey speaks and these other countries will listen. But again, we are woefully blind if we don’t recognize and counter what Turkey is now doing.
SPEAKER 05 :
Dr. Michael Rubin, fascinating conversation. I want to thank you for taking time to join us today and unpack this. This is something I’ve been watching, will continue to watch, and I look forward to having future conversations with you about what is happening in the Middle East, in particular with Turkey.
SPEAKER 18 :
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER 05 :
All right, folks, another thing to add to your prayer list. I am very concerned about Turkey and what they’re doing there, primarily as it pertains to Israel. But that has implications globally. In fact, I’m going to be over there next week in Israel. So be praying for us as we’re over there. All right, until next time, I’m going to leave you once again with the encouraging words of the Apostle Paul, found in Ephesians 6, where he says, when you’ve done everything you can do, when you’ve prayed, when you’ve prepared, and when you have taken your stand, you know what to do. By all means, just keep standing.
SPEAKER 15 :
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