Drive Radio: The Extra Mile welcomes Burke Payne of BP Appraisals for a must-hear conversation on what happens after an accident. If your vehicle is totaled, the first insurance offer may not be the best one. John and Burke explain how many drivers unknowingly leave thousands of dollars on the table by accepting quick settlements.
They break down total loss negotiations, diminished value claims, rental car rights, multi-vehicle crashes, and why getting expert help early can make a major difference. The episode also covers classic car collections, accurate valuations, estate planning, and making sure collector vehicles are properly insured.
Whether you
SPEAKER 02 :
This is Drive Radio, The Extra Mile, with your host, John Rush.
SPEAKER 06 :
Welcome back. Another edition of Drive Radio, The Extra Mile. And again, you can hear the show every week, Saturdays, 3 to 4 p.m. Yes, this is a follow-up of Drive Radio where we spend a lot more time on particular topics that, frankly, I don’t have time typically during our Drive Radio show because that’s a live call-in show, which is great. So today, I have got Burke Payne, BP Appraisals, with us. He’s been on the program many times, one of our great sponsors. And first of all, Burke, welcome.
SPEAKER 04 :
Thank you so much. I appreciate it, John.
SPEAKER 06 :
I appreciate you very much. You’ve helped lots of our listeners. In fact, I’m not exaggerating. I just got a text message in from somebody just a few minutes ago that has a Ford Focus, but it’s got a lot of stuff done to it, and it’s been totaled not by the fault of the owner. And of course, they’re trying to give very little money on that particular car. And they wanted to know who could I send them to for help. And of course, I’m sending them to you because that’s exactly what you can do to help. So since I just referred you literally not more than five minutes ago, literally talking about that, how is it you can help them along these lines?
SPEAKER 04 :
So basically, the insurance companies. currently are using or most of them are using what’s called ccc1 evaluation okay and it’s a computer algorithm that uh basically helps them find what they consider like vehicles to establish a value on the total vehicle okay the the big thing is is that those there’s been many um attorney generals across the United States that have actually sued the insurance companies for using that because it undervalues the vehicles by so much.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. And given that, and by the way, I want to make sure I remind everybody, and Burke, you can do this as well, and please, nobody, if you’re an insurance adjuster, work for the insurance companies, this is not a slam by any means. It’s just, and Burke, you know what I’m going to say here, this is just the way the system works. So for all of you listening, it’s the job of any adjuster. Whether they work directly for the insurance company, whether they’re a freelancer, which, Burke, you and I can talk about that for a moment. There’s a lot of freelance adjusters out there that, by the way, work for multiple companies at any given time. And it is the job. And, Burke, I don’t think I’m wrong in saying this. It’s a job of the adjuster. to make sure that they’re being quote-unquote fair, but at the same time saving the insurance company as much money as they possibly can. And what I mean by that is if they get sort of a, I hate to say it this way, but a pushover client that has no idea what their values are, and they throw a number out there, and it gets accepted on a total loss, well, who’s the wiser?
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. And they also, and I hate to use the word pray, but they do, they prey on people that need that vehicle. And are in a hurry to get the settlement done.
SPEAKER 06 :
Good point. I hadn’t thought about that, actually.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, I mean, they will push it. And something I’ve found recently that they’re doing is they will send you a paper saying, we will direct deposit your settlement checks into your account. And… Once they direct deposit that, you’ve accepted that as your final settlement, and you’re done.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, and you know, we’ve talked about that in the past, and that’s not in my notes, but I think it’s something worth covering. And for all of you listening, and this is my recommendation, Burke, I’ll get what yours is as well, but my recommendation is Please, do not do that. Even if you’re going to accept a settlement, get a check. You’re not accepting anything until that check has been endorsed and then put into your account, meaning that you’ve got even a few more days after that check is sent and you receive it to really determine, is this exactly what I want to do? But to your point, Burke, basically, once you accept payment, I guess that’s the best way for me to say it. Once you’ve accepted payment and it’s in your account, it’s a done deal, right?
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s absolutely right. And it’s really difficult to wind that back and undo that deal.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah. So really, for all of you listening, please, please. And number one, and Berk, I want to talk about this for a moment as well. Total losses are already painful as it is. You could have been injured. You could have other issues. Could have been a really special car to you. I mean, all sorts of things can happen. But by the way, we’re talking about whether you’re in your daily driver or your old classic or whatever. I mean, this applies to everything and everybody. So please, for all of you listening, don’t think this is just some sort of a specialty car thing. In fact, Burke, I will tell you that this probably is as much of a deal for the daily drivers as it is For anything, and the point being, they will push, especially in your case when you’re talking about it being your daily driver that you need to replace, they’re going to try to push that claim through as fast as they can.
SPEAKER 04 :
They are. They want to get it done as quickly as possible because they’ve got 15, 20 on their desk every day.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, good point. Good point. Yeah, good reminder.
SPEAKER 04 :
If you look at the numbers.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yep. No, keep going. Explain that because I think sometimes people think, well, I’m the only one that’s been affected by this. No, you’re one of many.
SPEAKER 04 :
No, if you think about the number of accidents in the state of Colorado in a given year, I mean, you’re talking 50,000, 60,000 accidents that are property damage, if not more.
SPEAKER 06 :
All right, so given, in this case, you’re one of many, and all the more reason why you got to really be on top of your game, and it’s why I give your name and number out literally all the time, because to your point, this happens far more than people think. And the one misconception I want to make sure that we really hammer home today is this can be any vehicle. I mean, Burke, it doesn’t have to be something that’s super fancy, super nice, super new. I mean, we’re talking across the board. In fact, maybe I’m wrong in saying this, Burke, and correct me if I am, but I would venture to guess that that middle-of-the-road, middle-aged car is probably being discounted more than some of the other things that I just mentioned, classics and newer cars and so on. Am I right in saying that? In other words, that middle-of-the-road car is probably being affected more than anything.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. I mean, 2004 to 2010 vehicles, and even probably up to 2020 vehicles, are getting discounted. I mean, they’re just, some of the marketplace examples that these insurance companies are using are branded titles, it’s in a nine accident, and they’re saying that this is the same value as a one car, one owner, one accident vehicle. And we’re, I mean, we’ve been really scoring some good home runs lately, five, $6,000 extra per client. Nice. And it’s a phone call. It’s a phone call. Email me the numbers. Let me look at them. Before you accept anything, just take a minute and reach out to us. We’ll be happy to look at it for free and tell you what we think.
SPEAKER 06 :
And this last – again, this listener that literally – Again, it’s so funny how this works. I’m just like, you’ve got to be kidding me. Burke’s going to be on with me in literally like seven minutes. I got the text minutes seven minutes before you and I started recording today’s program and asking, you know, who can I go to for help and so on, which always makes a reminder to me. for all of you listening, that yes, we have Burke on periodically. He runs commercials in our show. And I think sometimes everybody thinks, Burke, that, oh, Burke, he’s just for those older classic cars where there’s really a lot of high-end value and so on. And nothing could be farther from the truth, Burke. You can help anybody, any claim, anything along those lines where there’s a total loss, or even we’ll talk about diminished value and some of those things as well. But in this particular case with a total loss, you can help anybody.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, absolutely. And last year, We were close to $150,000 extra that we got clients over what the insurance companies were offering. Wow, that’s amazing. I think the lowest that we’ve ever gotten is like $3,000 over their initial offer. Okay. So, you know, some of these were hitting out of the ballpark. We got one guy $15,000 extra for his truck.
SPEAKER 06 :
Wow. Amazing. Okay. Given that, for all of you listening, that right there should tell all of you that if you’re involved, and this is my advice, if you’re involved in any kind of an accident, I don’t care what it is. We’re going to talk more later. a moment in our next segment about just regular vehicles you know diminished value and so on we’ll get into some of that we’ve talked about that in the past right now this first segment we’re talking about you know total losses and what you need to do but Burke I know and I know it varies from case to case so we’re not going to give any prices out over the phone but three are over the airwaves I should say but I know you and I know you make this very affordable for folks that are looking to do this in other words no matter what they’re gonna have a net positive
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, we’ve just started doing something that if we don’t hit a certain number, I’ll refund their money.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, awesome. I didn’t know that, so that’s new. For all of you listening, please take advantage of that. But really, also what I’ll say on that, Burke, is that means that you’ve got a confidence level whereby you know how much money is laying on the table, and it’s going to be that rarity where you can’t make that happen.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. And I’ll tell the client right up front, hey, this is a damn good offer. Take it. Go get the check right now. Cash that check and get it done.
SPEAKER 06 :
But really quick, in reality, how often does that happen?
SPEAKER 04 :
It’s happened one time so far.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. All right. Yeah. I figured it’s going to be a, well, you know, maybe it was just a, you know, right day, right adjuster feeling the right way. I mean, who knows, Bert, there could be all sorts of factors involved in that could be even a mistake that somebody made. And so great. Take the money and run point being one is all.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yep. Yep. One is all. It doesn’t happen very often. Like I said, we look at the numbers and, The funny thing is that the insurance company will, they’ll usually, from their first offer, if the consumer is a squeaky wheel, they’ll maybe bump it up $1,000 and hope that that client accepts it.
SPEAKER 07 :
Right, right.
SPEAKER 04 :
And people say, oh, I got an extra $1,000, it’s a win.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, there’s $4,000 more on the table or more.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 04 :
There’s four grand more. That’s right. That’s right.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, and really quick to give you an example. This is long before I knew Burke. I’ve got a, you know, I’m a regular daily show. I’ve got agents that help with booking of guests and so on. And one of them knows that I do some car stuff. And so, oh, gosh, Burke, probably four years ago now or so. It was actually during COVID. So it’s been five years ago now. I had one of the gals, actually, it’s a lady, she reached out to me and said, hey, I know you’re a car guy, and I had a total loss, and it wasn’t my fault, and this is the car, and this is the offer that I’m being made, and I just don’t feel like I’m really being made whole. And I took one look at things and did a little bit of calculation, and I’m like, yeah, no, you’re right, you’re not being made whole. And I literally, in this case, walked her through some of what you do, and this is how you need to handle this, this is what you need to go back to the insurance company with, and this is the This is the number that I would be looking for, period. And if you don’t get that, then you’re going to call an attorney. And lo and behold, Burke, she told me it took her about two days to do everything I told her to do, and she got all of her money. So point being is, in a lot of cases, it’s just that pushing back. Now, I want you to get into what you do to even help further that along, because you provide some real valuable data that even in this case we didn’t have. We just pushed back and got the money. You provide some real data.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. So we provide what we call marketplace examples. So I try to find as close to the quality of vehicle that the client has. If it’s a one-owner, I’m only looking at marketplace example vehicles that are one-owners. If it has 80,000 miles on it, I’m only looking at vehicles that have either 4,000 miles less or 4,000 miles more. I really tighten my scope down. Because that’s where the difference is. I’ve seen the insurance company use, like I said, branded titles. I’ve seen them use rental cars that have been sold back and sold. We all know everybody drives a rental car like they stole it.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s right.
SPEAKER 04 :
Drive it like you stole it.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s right.
SPEAKER 04 :
And so you have the one owner person that bought this car. They’ve taken it to BMW for every… Every single oil change, everything, all of that’s documented. All of that is a documented history on that vehicle.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
And that’s where the money lies, really.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. So for those of you listening, you know, Burke’s going to build, number one, you hire Burke. He’s going to build basically a case, I guess you could say, Burke, for that particular vehicle and what its value was prior to, in this case, a total loss. And then I guess the question I’ve gotten, I’m sure people listening are asking the same thing, Burke, who then goes to the insurance company and battles, you or the customer?
SPEAKER 04 :
It’s all me at that point.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
So what… Basically, the way the system works is once the client invokes their appraisal clause, and we send the client basically a form email that they send to their insurance company that has all of my information in it, says they’re invoking their appraisal clause, they don’t agree with the valuation, then the insurance company hires what is referred to as an independent appraiser.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, I can tell you that these independent appraisers are very, on retainer by several different insurance companies. And that’s all they do is they bump these things through. And that independent appraiser has to look at where can they put this vehicle in the market. And then we exchange appraisals, myself and the other independent appraiser, and then we go about the negotiation part of it. And I’ve gotten to the point now with my reputation with these independent appraisers that, you know, five times out of 10, five times out of eight, they’ll just call me up and say, okay, we’re good with your number. You’ve over-documented this. We don’t even want to deal with it. So it just becomes a slam dunk for us.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. Okay. So again, folks, I’m really, I cannot encourage enough of you because as Burke, we were talking just a few minutes ago, you know, accidents happen to a lot of people. You know, if you, if you’ve never been involved one, you know, Bless you. I mean, you’re very fortunate that that’s never happened to you. I don’t know. I mean, even in my case, Burke, where personally haven’t had too many issues, but, you know, I’ve got a large fleet and company and so on. And we deal with these things on an ongoing basis. And again, these are never fun times. And if you don’t have the skill set, which, by the way, most don’t. And we’re going to talk classics and some of that stuff as well because that’s a whole other ballgame because some of these vehicles, when it comes to getting an actual value, gets extremely difficult. But my point, Burke, is when it comes to hiring you, I don’t think there’s ever a situation, like you said a moment ago, I mean, if it’s a really great solid offer and you call Burke and he says, great, take the offer and run. But, Burke, you’re talking about one case where that happens because generally it’s the opposite.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. Generally, there’s at least $2,000 to $6,000 on the table, if not more.
SPEAKER 06 :
And that’s substantial, Burke. That’s a substantial amount of money.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, absolutely. If you think about it, if you’re going out trying to buy, let’s say it’s your daughter’s car. Let’s take my daughter, for example. She’s got a Nissan Sonata, 2011. It’s got less than 40,000 miles on it. I found a deal on it, less than 40,000 miles. If it got wrecked, I guarantee you the insurance companies are going to offer us way less. They’re not going to find another car. 2011 Sonata with 40,000 miles on it.
SPEAKER 06 :
No, you’re not. They don’t exist.
SPEAKER 04 :
So they’re going to offer us a lot less than that.
SPEAKER 06 :
And really quick, Burke, I want to interject here because for those of you listening, remember, you’re having to go replace this vehicle now and the whole idea of having insurance either with your own company or especially with another party that ran into you. And Burke, I want to make sure I use this term in the right way. You need to be made whole. That’s why you have it in the first place, correct?
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s correct. The other thing that we’ve ran into recently is with multi-vehicle accidents.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
So let’s say vehicle number one wrecks into vehicle number two, which then wrecks into your car.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
So vehicle number two is the first one to get money out of vehicle number one accident insurance.
SPEAKER 06 :
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER 04 :
So when it comes to your vehicle, there’s not going to be that much left on the table.
SPEAKER 06 :
I see.
SPEAKER 04 :
So what I suggest with everybody is file it with your own insurance company first.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
File the claim. It doesn’t matter that you’re not at fault. In the state of Colorado, that doesn’t matter. Okay. Because your insurance will subrogate against the other insurance company. That’s right. And you won’t have any points. Your premiums won’t go up, anything like that. you know, 99% of the time if you’re not at fault.
SPEAKER 06 :
Makes sense. Makes sense. Okay, let’s do this. We’ve got a lot more to talk about. For all of you listening, again, Drive Radio, The Extra Mile. Burke, before I let you go in this segment, give everybody your phone number and the best way to reach you.
SPEAKER 04 :
So the best way to reach me is literally on my cell phone with me pretty much 24-7. It’s 720-295-0108. Once again, 720-295-0108. We’re also on the web at bpautoappraisals.com, and we’re on Facebook. Get on Facebook. Look at some of our success stories. We post them occasionally as we go along, and you can see the kind of results we’ve had.
SPEAKER 06 :
And again, if you miss any of that, by the way, you’re driving, something along those lines, drive-radio.com. Always go there. Find Burke there. He’s listed under our sponsor page. Can’t miss it. Let’s do this. We’re going to take a quick break. We’re going to come right back. This is Drive Radio, The Extra Mile, right here on KLZ 560.
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SPEAKER 02 :
This program was recorded earlier for broadcast at this time. No phone calls can be accepted.
SPEAKER 06 :
And we are back. Drive Radio, The Extra Mile. Again, myself, Burke Payne from BP Appraisals. And don’t let the appraisal part, how should I say this, Burke? I mean, that’s what you’re doing. That’s why it’s in the name. But don’t let that fool you. You’re doing a lot more for people, especially in these total loss. We’re going to talk about now diminished value. But you’re doing a lot more than just appraising a vehicle in this particular case. You’re really going to bat for this particular car owner in making them whole again.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s absolutely right. Our whole thing is we take it off of your plate, and we put it on mine, and let me deal with these guys. I speak the same language they do. I understand what they’re trying to do, and I understand how to get more money.
SPEAKER 06 :
And let me, for a lot of you listening, because some of you will know this statement. So in the homeowner world, which I have dealt with this in the past, in the commercial world as well, when you’ve got other type of property insurance, house and so on, There are what they call public adjusters that literally do exactly what Burke’s doing on a car. You basically sign things over to where that person now represents you. By law, you can have a public adjuster come in and represent you on your behalf. They go to bat for you. They know the policies better than you do. They know what the limitations are. They know in a lot of cases what insurance companies are willing to do and not do. And essentially, Burke, what you’re doing on the auto side is what a public adjuster does on the housing and commercial side, right? Right.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s correct.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. All right. So for a lot of you listening, you’ll understand that probably better because you understand, because I’ve talked about it in the past as to what public adjusters do. Really, Burke, that’s what you’re doing for folks with their car. Again, idea, folks, is you need to be made whole. Key word there. Whole. Not partial. Not halfway. but whole based upon an accident. And again, this could be your own insurance company you’re dealing with, Burke, or it could be another party insurance company that you’re dealing with, or in some cases, a combination of both. Bottom line, though, you need to be made whole. That’s why you have insurance.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s absolutely true. And they’re not being made whole. And that’s what’s frustrating for me. And that’s why I, you know, these are some of the ones I really, really enjoy. Because I feel like I’ve won a little victory for the little guy, you know?
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah. No, hey, I am with you on that. And it’s why we have you on from time to time. And in this case, spending literally almost an entire full hour. It’s not quite with commercials, but pretty darn close to where we can really delve into, you know, how this works. And again, folks, please, you know. I want to throw this out there as well because I’ve had this conversation in the past with some folks, sometimes even family members, Burke. You might have a great relationship with your agent. In fact, you may have been with this agent for decades. And by the way, this is nothing against agents. There’s a ton of really good, solid agents out there. But, Burke, you know this as well as I. The agent isn’t the adjuster, are they?
SPEAKER 04 :
No, they are not. Your agent basically is out of the loop when it comes after the accident. Because it goes to the adjuster, to the inspector that comes out and looks at the car, decides whether it’s totaled or not. Yeah.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, and my reasons for saying that, folks, is a lot of you feel somewhat obligated or you feel bad if you try to do something with the claim that gets more of a value out of it because you somehow feel like you’re – your agent some way, somehow is going to be nicked by that. Now I understand depending upon the agent that yes, they can be charged back for claims and so on. And again, I’m not nothing against agents, Burke, but at the end of the day, you’re buying insurance and you’re doing that for a reason and you need to be made whole.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. Absolutely need to be made whole. And your insurance agent, you know, that’s, you know, they’re there, they’re there for, Hey, I’ve got a question. Hey, I need to, you know, put my new car on the policy and that kind of thing. But when it comes to that claims adjuster, it’s usually corporate that’s dealing with that, not them. That’s right.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s right. Time frame. I know that’s probably something folks are thinking in the back of their mind. We’ll talk about a diminished value in a moment. But when we’re just talking in general and people are thinking, okay, wait a minute. I know I just had a total loss. I do need to get a car replaced. I’m juggling all these things and maybe even within the – The doctor’s office, hospital, I mean, let’s hope no serious injuries or anything along those lines. But now, Burke, they’re dealing with the property loss. What are we talking about timeframe on all of this? I mean, is this a month, a week, six months? What are we talking?
SPEAKER 04 :
So normally, well, I should say, let’s put it this way. In most insurance policies, the insurance company has up to 30 days to appoint an independent appraiser. I can say that on average, it’s about seven days before they appoint one. Once they appoint the appraiser and that appraiser and I connect via email, via phone call or whatever, the claim is settled usually within 72 hours.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
So we’re talking maybe 10 days?
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah. So I was just going to say, for those of you listening where you’re thinking, well, gosh, okay, great. Thank you, guys. I appreciate all of this. But, you know, am I talking two, three, four weeks to get this handled? And Burke just answered that. Now, the question I have for you, Burke, is, okay, this person’s had a total loss. They may or may not have been offered a rental car, for example, and especially if it’s the other party’s insurance, I would highly recommend you get a rental car because you ought to be able to get that reimbursed as well. You need transportation. It wasn’t your fault. Your car now is at a total loss. How does that work, Burke?
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s absolutely true. The rental car should be covered under the at-fault vehicle or at-fault driver’s insurance company. Okay. I always carry, even though I have a bunch of vehicles, I always carry rental car insurance on my own policy.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, me too.
SPEAKER 04 :
Just in case something like that happens.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right, right.
SPEAKER 04 :
Just in case I need a rental car.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right. But my point for all of you listening is I’ve heard people even be, again, because I don’t know why they’re afraid to step up, I guess, Burke, and be made whole. And so they’re scrambling around. They’re picking up rides. They’re doing this. They’re doing that. And the reality is… They could just go down to Enterprise or Avis or wherever and rent a car. Now, again, for those of you listening, please, the way this typically works is it kind of has to be like for like. I mean, if you’re driving an Escalade and it gets wrecked and you want to go rent an Escalade, then be my guest. You should have full right to be able to do so. But if you’re driving a Toyota Corolla, you’re not going to rent an Escalade and probably get reimbursed for that. My point, Burke, is I believe you have to be within reason as to your vehicle versus what you’re renting. Am I right in that?
SPEAKER 04 :
Like kind and quality, yeah.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
So, you know, you’re not going to – if you’re driving the 88 Yugo, you’re definitely not going to go get a Cadillac Escalade. Right. So, you know. you’re going to get a small compact car.
SPEAKER 06 :
But for some of you that are… Trucks, same way. Yeah, trucks are the same way. Some of you that use your vehicles in those ways. Some of you that are realtors that are listening to me were, yes, you’ve got a nicer car because of what you do. Some of you are traveling salespeople, same situation. You’re driving a nicer car for a reason. Yes, you’re able to rent a like vehicle. Just because you’re driving a… A BMW 7 Series, for example, doesn’t mean you then can go rent a Toyota Corolla. I mean, you can, but you can rent a high-end vehicle and get reimbursed because, as Burke said a moment ago, it’s like for like.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s absolutely true. Okay. And that’s something that we’ve seen the insurance companies actually use as part of a bargaining chip to get you to sign off on that claim is they will wait until just about the time your rental car is about to expire and from your insurance company, and then they’ll send you their offer. And you’ll have two days to decide. And I understand that people get, I’ve been there. I’ve been to the point where I gotta take this offer because I don’t have a rental car. But just make that phone call. Let me look at the numbers. Let’s not leave five or $6,000 sitting on the table.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, for all of you listening to me, my advice is this. Don’t wait, because I’ve had situations where I’ve referred you guys to Burke, and it’s been after you’ve already been in the middle of the claim for quite some time. My advice to all of you is from the second you’re involved in an action, yes, I know you’ve got things you’ve got to get dealt with. You’ve got to make sure that you’re fine, not injured, and so on. But, man, folks, I’m not exaggerating. Literally, I would get Burke involved within 24 hours of having something like that happen and have him help walk you through this and speed this whole process up.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely, because if we’re ahead of the ball and we know what kind of vehicle you have, I pull the car facts on all of them, so I know what kind of history this car has, I can start on the appraisal. I can at least give you a ballpark number. Say, hey, if the insurance company offers you $27,000 for your 2014 Toyota, take it. Right, right. And again, really quick, for those of you listening, Burke Payne, BP Appraisals, his number, call him directly, 720-295-0108, 720-295-0108.
SPEAKER 06 :
And as I said earlier, as I opened up this particular segment, don’t let the appraisal part… fool you. Yes, that’s a part of this. But Burke, you’re using that as the jumping off point to then go in and handle the claim for this particular client. And I think that’s where there’s some confusion. I think people think, well, okay, I can get an appraisal from Burke. Well, now what do I do with it? Well, there’s a lot more to it. And I really want to make sure I’m clear on that for all of you listening, because Burke takes over for you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, absolutely. We do all the negotiation. You know, like I said, I’ve got these, you know, I’ve There’s a few independent adjusters that I run into on a regular basis, and there are times when I send them my 80-page report, they’re like, Don, we’ll send you the org letter today. We’re just going to accept it. We’re not going to even haggle with this one. Wow. So, you know, it’s just, you know, I over-document stuff, and that’s my whole goal is to give them so much information that they really can’t come back and say this car is worth what we first offered.
SPEAKER 06 :
Nice. Nice. Okay. We’ve got a little bit of time here in this particular segment, and I meant to talk about diminished value during this segment, but what we’re talking about is really key, and some of it applies to both. But talk to us about diminished value. So there’s been an accident. Car is not totaled, but it’s never going to be worth the same money it is now. Talk about that for a few minutes.
SPEAKER 04 :
So basically the way diminished value works is the way I explain to most people is you go to the car dealership and they have a red Ford F-150 that has 80,000 miles on it, never been in an accident. They have another red F-150 that has 80,000 miles on it that has been in one accident. You are going to expect to pay less for that vehicle, the same exact vehicle that has the accident report on it. That’s been in an accident. Even if it’s fixed perfectly, it still has that negative mark against it.
SPEAKER 07 :
Right.
SPEAKER 04 :
Right. So that’s how diminished value works. And in every vehicle, in every accident, now, it may not be worth it to hire me to do diminished value if you had a fender bender where all they had to do was repaint the rear bumper.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
Because it got scratched. Chances are that’s probably not going to be enough diminished value to… to warrant hiring me, and I’ll tell them that right up front. I’ll look at the claim for the report from the collision center, and I’ll say, you know what, there just isn’t enough meat on this bone for me to take a bite of, so I’m gonna tell you, looks like there’s about $500, $600 in diminished value. Tell your adjuster that you want an additional $500 on top of the offer they’re giving you, and walk away. You’re good at that point. Now, if it’s a higher-end vehicle, a McLaren, a Porsche, something like that, now we’re talking difference.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah. To your point, and this is where, again, folks, simple phone call. Burke’s not charging you for a phone call. So, you know, you may have had that fender bender. Maybe it’s on a high-end car, and you’re thinking, well, it’s just a fender bender. Burke says it’s a fender bender. Don’t worry about it. Well, no, no, time out. My suggestion is call him on any of these. Find out exactly where you’re at because depending upon the vehicle. Let me give you guys an example. Now, this is a little bit of an extreme example, Burke, most likely. But I went to Barrett-Jackson about a week ago, by the time this program plays, two weeks prior. So I was at Bear Jackson, and there happened to be a 2017 Ferrari 48 Spyder, about 14,000 miles, and that’s a car that I know the value of fairly well. And at the end of the day, I’m reading through the full description, and this car, which it did affect, I believe, its auction value, it had a not-so-great Carfax. It had had some rear-end damage previous. And remember, this is a Ferrari, folks. Now, Burke, you can tell me probably better than I, when there’s that kind of damage on that type of an exotic. I mean, this is a car that, for those of you listening, is, you know, this car typically is going to be used somewhere in the $275,000 to $300,000 range, probably. This car at auction sold for about $230,000. Now, remember that the auction price, there’s 10% on top of that. So, honestly, it probably sold for about $250,000. But my point, Burke, is that car takes a huge hit from having that Carfax report, or am I wrong?
SPEAKER 04 :
No, you’re absolutely right. It takes a huge hit. Because if you’re buying one, you don’t want that negative wreath hanging around your car. Right. You know? You may not be able to tell it, but when you go to resell it, it’s going to be there.
SPEAKER 07 :
Right.
SPEAKER 04 :
So, you know… Right.
SPEAKER 07 :
Great point.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, absolutely. Hiring cars, Corvettes, you know, big ones, you know, the… The 2025 Corvette, man, any type of action with that is going to hammer those hard. Okay. Same thing with the McLarens and the, yeah, all the way down the road.
SPEAKER 06 :
So, again, for those of you that are listening, again, really key. I know we talked about total loss to begin with because that’s even a bigger deal, but diminished value is something that you need to be made whole of. Now, I know we’ve talked in the past, Burke, when it comes to diminished value and it’s not always as cut and dried. In fact, this one is a little bit more dicey, or is it, than a total loss and getting made whole that way? In other words, diminished value in some insurance companies is a bigger fight, or am I wrong?
SPEAKER 04 :
No, you’re absolutely right. It definitely is a bigger fight. And sometimes it takes actually hiring an attorney and taking my diminished value report and going that way with the lawsuit type thing, especially if you’re talking… you know, $30,000, $40,000, you know, it might be worth it to hire both I and the attorney to handle that.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. So, yeah, again, for some of you, I know I should make sure I’m clear on this because some companies, I mean, Burke, I know this because I’ve had conversations with, you know, just regular insured motorists whereby there’s been some sort of a, a vehicle that was damaged, and some insurance companies just flat out almost refuse to talk to you about diminished value because they feel like, nope, we made you whole, the car’s fixed, it’s got full warranty through our collision center, blah, blah, blah. There’s nothing for you to worry about. Not so fast.
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s correct, because that mark is still on that vehicle. And our reports are written in a way that basically points out why there’s diminished value. Why is it? And we use… You know, for our diminished value reports, we use industry standards. We use vehicles for marketplace examples that have had one accident. You know, if this is the first accident this car has ever been in, I’m pulling marketplace examples of vehicles that have one accident and saying, hey, based on this, This is where we’re sitting.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. Okay. Folks, again, I cannot stress this enough, and there’s a lot of you listening whereby, unfortunately, Burke, there’s probably some folks listening thinking, oh, crap, I should have done this with the last XYZ that I had. Well, here’s the thing, folks. You know now. Maybe you weren’t able to do this in the past, but now moving forward, if something happens, you can. My point is, Burke, is, yeah, things happen. That’s why they’re called accidents, by the way. And for some of you where you’re kicking yourself now for not doing something previous, well, here’s the thing. Just don’t let it happen again. Again, we’re with Burke Payne, BP Appraisals. And don’t let the appraisal fool you. We’re talking about total loss on vehicles, talking about diminished value. I now want to come back. We’re going to talk about some classics and some of you that are into that. I just talked about Barrett-Jackson. I did a whole show here recently on the whole classic car market and so on. We’re going to talk about that here in a moment as well. But Burke’s number is 720. That’s 295-0108. And don’t forget, you can always text me a question, like the referral I just did a few minutes ago. You can text me questions, and I can refer you in that matter as well. That number, 307-200-8222. And don’t forget our website, drive-radio.com. Again, this is Drive Radio, The Extra Mile, right here on KLZ 560.
SPEAKER 01 :
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SPEAKER 03 :
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SPEAKER 02 :
This program was recorded earlier for broadcast at this time. No phone calls can be accepted.
SPEAKER 06 :
Drive Radio, The Extra Mile, KLZ 560. Thanks for listening to us again. Burke Payne, BP Appraisals is with us. Okay, now one thing I want to talk about, Burke, because this is another one where I spent an hour the other day on The Extra Mile talking about classic cars, the market, the fact that there are certain eras of cars now that are, I’m sorry to say, just not holding their value like they were. And the way I explained it, Burke, is it’s supply and demand. You have X amount of cars, which I always have to remind people, when it comes to classic cars, there’s very little inventory change with classic cars. And in some cases, because of barn fines and or cars where they’re replicating all the sheet metal, where you can almost build a brand new car out of really just having a title, reality is there’s The inventory in some cases, Burke, isn’t diminishing. It’s increasing. And yet in certain era of cars and certain types of cars, the buyer pool is decreasing. And we all know what happens with supply and demand, Burke. When there’s more supply than there is demand, prices come down. Is that not how this works?
SPEAKER 04 :
That’s absolutely how this works. Absolutely. And we’re seeing a lot of people are aging out of the plastic cart collecting.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, and somebody asked me the other day what era, and this is what I wanted to talk to you about today because this is my gut feeling. And for those of you listening, please, this is not a dig at any particular vehicle. Some of what I’m going to talk about, there’s some great vehicles that are in this particular era of vehicles. But just because I like them and just because you like them doesn’t mean the value is there. Now, there’s some really great buys. We’ll talk about that here in a moment. But, Burke, I think, and this is me, this is me looking at the market, and I was just at Barrett-Jackson, so I think I’ve got a pretty good pulse on this. You look at even mid-60s and under. Now, depends on the car that’s in the mid-60s, but I could really say early 60s and older, those cars are dropping in value. They’re not increasing unless it’s a one-off really strange thing or it’s a Corvette, for example, or a AC Cobra or something like that. I’m not talking about those, but generally speaking, that year and older, they’re not going up in value. Am I right or wrong?
SPEAKER 04 :
You’re absolutely right. They’re, they’re very, if they’re, they’re dropping or becoming very stagnant because they aren’t, they’re, they’re, they’re just too many of them out there on the market right now. Yep. And that’s where I was saying about the people aging out of the hot rod, you know, the, the collector car, uh, market is, you know, we’ve got people that are, their whole collections are going to family members that don’t care about these cars. They didn’t, there, there’s no, there’s no love for them. There’s no history behind them for them. So they’re selling them.
SPEAKER 06 :
And, you know, that’s… Yeah, well, and Burke, I want to interject because going through everything I went through the last couple of years with my dad and his collection and so on, and folks, please hear me when I say this, and I’m doing this with all the love I can. And I do. I love all my listeners, Burke. I think they’re great. And to your point, some are getting older and so on. And the reality of what you just said is exactly right. And even me being… car guy there were cars my dad had that frankly I I’m a different guy I have different wants and desires when it comes to classic cars and in the point I’m making with my dad is we waited too long to sell some cars and because of that lost money on that Burke in other words the collection lost money where if we would have sold those even five years ago we’d have been much better off
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. I mean, and that’s one of the things we talked about with the, you know, when I talk to clients about the market, you know, they ask me, well, how long is my appraisal good for? I’m like, it depends on the market.
SPEAKER 06 :
I’m sorry, Burke. I’m not making fun, but some of these cars, literally depending upon the car, I’m not exaggerating. It might be good for 30 to 60 days because the market’s changing that fast.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. And, you know, if someone were to remake say American Graffiti tomorrow, you might see some of those cars of that era increase in value because all of a sudden people are going, that’s really cool. I didn’t even know that car existed.
SPEAKER 06 :
Problem is, that’s not happening. And again, please, folks, let me be very clear on this. There’s a lot of great cars. I see them every day. If you want to buy a car and just own the car and go to car shows and just have a lot of fun, there’s a ton of really great buys where you can do that. And when I say for not a lot of money, folks, there’s some really nice old classic hot rods that you can buy in the $20,000 to $30,000 range, which… Trust me, some of you are saying, well, that’s a lot of money. Not when it comes to what it takes to build and even paint a car. In some cases, the paint alone could exceed half of that value, and I’m not exaggerating. So you find a really nice car that’s done really well, there are some really great bargains. And again, Burke, that’s where you can come along and tell someone, yeah, this is a great deal, buy it or not.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. We do pre-purchase appraisals where we’ll go out and we’ll look at the car. We do it for clients that are outside of Colorado. that are looking at cars here in Colorado because Colorado is a great place to buy a hot rod because of our weather and the lack of salt on the roads and that kind of thing as opposed to if you buy a classic from Michigan. I made that mistake.
SPEAKER 06 :
this year myself so oh yeah there no it is a different world there than what we have here and for some of you listening please and not trying to be you know rude in fact sometimes i’ve had these conversations with some and i can just tell they’re totally defeated and sometimes they don’t agree with me you can i can see it in their eyes burke that they’re like you know this guy has no idea what he’s talking about my car’s still worth a boatload of money um Now, if you’ve got a 57 Chevy that’s got an original Rochester fuel injection and so on, yeah, that car might be worth more than your average 57 Chevy. But I’m here to tell you, 55 to 57 Chevys even, as popular as they once were and what they were really bringing money-wise, Burke, I’m not exaggerating. They’re half of what they used to be.
SPEAKER 04 :
No, you’re absolutely right. They’re definitely dropping in value because of the people that… having the nostalgia with them, are no longer with us. Right, right.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s exactly right. No, you’re spot on. So point being, for some of you that are thinking about getting into that classic car world, great. You know what? We need more people. I’m never going to discourage somebody from getting involved, Burke. But know what you’re getting into. Hire you first on the pre-purchase sides of things to make sure that you’re getting the right deal. And then the other thing I want to add into this is those of you that have families, you’re involved in a family. Maybe you’re somebody who listens to drive radio routinely, and you’ve got grandparents or folks or uncles or whatever, and they’ve got some classic cars, and you’re just thinking, yep, someday I’m going to inherit those, and I’m going to make bank at that point in time. Well, again, what you maybe should do now, and I’m advocating this for Burke, is you probably should get that collection appraised now. Burke and I, neither one have crystal balls, although, Burke, I can pretty much tell you what some of these cars are going to do in the not-too-distant future. You can as well. And that’s probably something where you can sit down with the family and say, guys, you know what? If you’re going to maximize your return on investment right now, you should sell now, not in two or three or four years when dad, grandpa, uncle, or whatever decide that they’re finally going to relinquish this. You guys really should have a serious conversation about what to do now, not then. And my advice is to call you in now.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. It’s all about timing the market. It’s all about looking at what’s coming up. Ford GT, this will be the anniversary of the Ford GT. I guarantee those prices are going to go up.
SPEAKER 06 :
They’re bringing big money there. They did at Barrett-Jackson, so you’re 100% correct, Bert.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah. So if you sold last year, chances are you probably sold under what you could have sold them for this year.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right. Meaning you don’t want to buy this year.
SPEAKER 04 :
Right. Don’t buy this year. Yeah. If you want to wait, hold on. Hold on until next year when the hype is gone.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s right. Yeah. By the way, thank you for saying that. There is so much in the classic car world, much like art or other collectibles, that have to do with hype around something. And that hype can come and go. And there are some staples. And for those of you listening, please, I talked about this this past Saturday. So, Burke, you may or may not have seen this, but there was a large tank Corvette 63 split window, full rotisserie rebuild, you know, has Rochester fuel injection, super, super, super nice car. And it brought over a million bucks. Now, the problem is anybody else with a 63 split window is going to think their car is worth that. And the reality, Burke, is they’re not. They need a reality check because not every car is going to be worth that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. And unfortunately, you know, there are times when I have to give that kind of information to people and be like, hey, I’m sorry. I know that that one went across the thing at Barrett-Jackson, but your car is not Barrett-Jackson. Right. That’s right. That’s just flat out the way it is.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, and remember, folks, all of you listening, too, this is something that most people forget. That went across the auction. It was around a million bucks or so. Now, there’s a 10% premium. By the way, it’s like eight on one side, 10 on the other. So the reality is the seller doesn’t. didn’t net a million bucks. The seller was probably around the 900, nine and a quarter range, Burke. So even at a million bucks, where I’m going with this is everybody thinks, oh, those guys netted a million one on that deal. No, Barrett-Jackson took a big fee to sell the car. The owner got around 900K.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. Yeah, Barrett-Jackson takes the fee. The seller pays the fee. The buyer pays the fee. Everybody’s got their hand in the pocket.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s right. So that’s why those auction prices, for those of you listening, are really hard to determine, you know, your car in your garage or granddad’s car in the barn. Yeah, there are that rare occasion or there is that rare occasion where you go to granddad’s barn and there’s an original, you know, 50,000 mile, pretty primo, paints in good condition, 69Z28 numbers matching and so on. Problem, Burke, is there’s not many of those left. So the chances of you finding that in grandpa’s garage are pretty slim.
SPEAKER 04 :
They are, but the thing I tell people all the time is also don’t assume that it’s a Facebook marketplace car.
SPEAKER 06 :
That’s true, too.
SPEAKER 04 :
Good point. Give me a call. Have me come out and look at it. Let’s run the numbers. We did an appraisal for a lady a while back. Her husband was a car guy. He had this car in the garage forever. Her neighbors had offered her $3,000 or $4,000. Her son told her, call, call Burke, let him, I’ve worked with her son before. He’s like, call Burke, let him look at it. And she’s like, well, I really think I’m just going to sell it to the guy down the street. And son finally said, no, I’m going to pay for Burke to come out and look at it. The car was, you know, 15 to 20,000 was the market where I brought it in. She would have left a ton of money on the table.
SPEAKER 06 :
Great point. We were talking earlier about, of course, total loss and then diminished value. Well, guess what? Now we’re talking about collector cars, guys, to where you may have some of these cars in your possession that you’re trying to figure out values on, or you’re going to be the executor of the will, and maybe you’re already signed up for that, or you are. Maybe somebody’s passed away, and now you’re trying to figure out, what do I do with these things? And it happens. I’ve got another particular person that I’m going to send to Burke here that I got an email on on Saturday. I guess you could call it a classic car. Anything that’s of a specialty vehicle, this car is going to be about 25 years old. I guess you could call it a classic. Burke, I’m getting old. I really don’t consider it a classic since it’s a 2000. But the reality is it is. It’s 25 years old now. And the reality is they need to know value and how to get this car marketed. My advice to them is going to be call you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. And that’s, you know, the thing we found with our, with our appraisals on, on cars that are going, that are going to be sold is that when you can hand the potential buyer who walks in an 80 page document that basically goes through this vehicle from one end to the other and, and, you know, has the history of the vehicle has, you know, all of that, it shows them that, you know, what you have, you’re not asking a million dollars for an 88, you go, you know, You know what you have, they know what you have, and you can both come to an agreement.
SPEAKER 07 :
Great idea.
SPEAKER 04 :
We’ve seen sales, like people have had cars on bring a trailer and not hit their reserve, and yet when they hand out appraisals to the guy that walks in the door, they’re like, oh, yeah, done deal. I’ll write you a check right now.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right. Great point. Again, for those of you listening, I’ve seen Burke’s appraisals. I know exactly what he’s talking about, being the car guy that – that I am, I can tell you guys, you know, rest assured, you’re going to be really dialed in when it comes to, you know, that end of things and have everything that you need. Now, here’s the other thing, too, for some of you listening. Depending upon the car, you may need this appraisal to get it properly insured. Burke, I got about four minutes or so left. Talk about that.
SPEAKER 04 :
So the big thing with insurance is, one, we don’t over-insure, and one, we don’t under-insure. We want to hit that sweet spot.
SPEAKER 07 :
That’s right.
SPEAKER 04 :
If you over-insure it, you’re throwing premium away. That’s right. If you under-insure it, you’re throwing your value away. So you want to hit that sweet spot. I don’t want to insure my 88 Yugo for a million dollars because there’s no insurance company in the world when I wreck it are going to come out and write me a check for a million dollars. Good point. It’s just not going to happen.
SPEAKER 06 :
Good point. Yeah, I call it, you know, you don’t want to be insurance poor by spending too much, but on the same token, you want to be really careful on insurance because if you have a nice classic car that’s worth a substantial amount of money and you don’t have that insured correctly, you’re never going to collect on that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. And you’re going to be, you’re going to fight with them. And, you know, we’ve talked about, you know, wintertime, and I’m sure every car guy is the same as I am, wintertime is the time to be in the garage putting on the new part and that, and looking at, Oh, I got $10,000 from Speedway in the last three months, and I bolted all this stuff on there, and I’ve never upgraded my insurance. I’ve never upgraded my appraisal. I’ve never looked at that stuff. Then you drive down the road to go get the… go get the alignment done, and it gets wrecked, and now you’re behind the eight ball.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right, right. Great point. All right, before we close out, for those of you listening, and Burke, I know you’ll do this because you and I have chatted about this in the past, but some of you that have car clubs whereby a lot of what we’ve talked about today could easily apply to some of the things you guys have going on inside of your clubs and so on. Burke, are you willing to go and talk to these guys if they want you?
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. We put on about a 50 to 60 minute presentation, give you as much information as I possibly can, basically about everything that we do. And then on top of that, when we come out, we offer club discounts. For anybody that wants to get an appraisal done, we offer that as part of our deal.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. Well, for those who are listening, we’ve talked today about total loss. Got to call Burke for that and get him on the horn right away because there’s lots of moving parts there that you and me made whole on right away. diminished value that’s another big one we’ve talked about that in the past we’ve gotten you know I know Burke has gotten money back for some of you listening because I’ve known that directly because of the relationship I have with you guys as listeners plus you guys call Burke so that’s another one where if you’ve had any kind of an accident period make sure that you’re made whole and then for a lot of you that have collections and maybe it’s not even your collection it’s dad’s collection or it’s grandpa’s collection or it maybe is your brother’s collection, but you’re still going to be the executor and you don’t know a lot about cars. This is where Burke can come alongside and really help you guys. What we’re really getting at here, and I think this is where I’m going with this, Burke, is let Burke make you more money when it’s all said and done. Don’t leave money on the table by not calling you. It’s a free phone call, Burke. All they have to do is get in touch with you.
SPEAKER 04 :
Absolutely. And it doesn’t matter if you’re in Colorado or you’re in California or New York.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 04 :
With total losses, diminished values, we can help you out.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. Yeah. And by the way, thank you for that reminder because we have listeners from all over the country listening with the way the Internet and such works. So thank you for saying that.
SPEAKER 04 :
You know, if it’s a large collection, we’ll figure out how to get out there and get it taken care of if it’s out of state. We’ve gone to Minnesota. We’ve gone down to Texas to do entire collections up to Wyoming. We go all over for entire collections, and we’ll make it worth their while.
SPEAKER 06 :
All right, that’s it, guys, for today. Drive Radio, The Extra Mile. Again, Burke Payne, call him directly, 720-295-0108. Again, 720-295-0108. You can also find him on our website, drive-radio.com. Burke, man, as always, I learn something every time you’re on. I know our listeners do, too, and I just appreciate all that you do for them.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, I certainly appreciate you and look forward to seeing everybody at the upcoming shows. We’ve got Tri-State coming up here this weekend.
SPEAKER 06 :
This weekend, that’s right, this weekend.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, we’ll be out there, and we’ll be out there for the Tri-State auto exposition also. We’re looking forward to getting the car season rolling and seeing everybody out at the car show.
SPEAKER 06 :
Awesome. Burke, I appreciate it, man. Have a good one.
SPEAKER 04 :
All right, you too, brother. Thank you much.
SPEAKER 06 :
All right, and this has been Drive Radio, the Extra Mile, heard every Saturday right here on KLZ 560 from 3 to 4 p.m.
