Explore the life of a legend as Colonel Harvey reflects on his experiences in World War II, the Korean War, and the pivotal 1949 Top Gun competition. Despite facing systemic racism and numerous challenges, Colonel Harvey’s story is one of triumph and determination, offering valuable lessons on courage, focus, and striving for excellence. This episode is a tribute to the perseverance and bravery of America’s veterans.
SPEAKER 03 :
World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Afghanistan, and her other wars and conflicts. America’s fighting men and women strapped on their boots and picked up their guns to fight tyranny and stand for liberty. We must never forget them. Welcome to America’s Veteran Stories with Kim Munson. These stories will touch your heart, inspire you, and give you courage. We stand on the shoulders of giants. Here’s Kim Munson.
SPEAKER 08 :
And welcome to America’s Veterans Stories with Kim Munson. Be sure and check out our website. That is AmericasVeteranStories.com. The show comes to you because of a trip that I took in 2016 with a group that accompanied four D-Day veterans back to Normandy, France, for the 72nd anniversary of the Allies’ D-Day landings to liberate France from Hitler and his Nazi regime. Return stateside realizing that we need to know these stories. We need to record them and broadcast them and archive them, and hence America’s veteran stories. I am so honored to have on the line with me Lieutenant Colonel James H. Harvey III. He was the winner of the very first military Top Gun competition. It is a remarkable story. Colonel Harvey, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be with you. And Colonel Harvey, you also are a Tuskegee Airman, correct? That’s correct. Okay, well, let’s talk about your story. First of all, where did you grow up?
SPEAKER 09 :
I grew up in a small town in northeastern Pennsylvania called Nongal Station.
SPEAKER 08 :
you can tell how big that was by the name and uh what you know how many children in the family where did you fall within the um within the line of the children
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. I was the first of four children, and I was the only child for nine years. My mother was so old that she couldn’t have any more children after I was born. Anyway, my brother arrived nine years later, and three years after that, a sister, and three years after that, another sister.
SPEAKER 08 :
So there were a total of four of us. Okay. And you are going to celebrate your 100th birthday here in 2023, correct? Yes. That is pretty, pretty remarkable. So what was it like growing up in this little town in Pennsylvania? It was great.
SPEAKER 09 :
Pardon me. Pardon me. It was great. We were the only family of color out there in the area. And I didn’t have any problems whatsoever. No name-calling, no nothing. I was just one of the other groups, one of the other people, I should say, living there in New England. And when I moved there, when we moved there, I was in the seventh grade in the two-room schoolhouse. And when I finished the two-room school, I went to high school up in Mountaintop, Pennsylvania. And that school went from first grade through the 12th grade. But anyway, I entered on the ninth grade, and here again, the name calling, no nothing. I was just one of the groups. So I just fit right in with everything. The only sports they had in the school were gymnastics and basketball. And I was the in command of the gymnastics team and captain of the basketball team. No problems, no name calling, no nothing. I was just another person. Then in my senior year, I was class president and fellow Victorian. Oh my goodness. Here again, just another guy.
SPEAKER 08 :
First of all, we need to reclaim that experience here in 2023 America of no name-calling and just that experience. So that gives me heart. But I’m hearing this… striving for excellence. And we’ve done an interview before. And I think that’s one of the things that at least I feel is a takeaway is your continued striving for excellence. And it sounds like it started when you were in school.
SPEAKER 09 :
It started before I went to school. It started early in my life. I used to listen to Walt Disney and see his characters, and I used to draw them. And as a matter of fact, my drawings are better than his. But everything had to be perfect. for anything less than deflection. And I just carried through all through my military career up until the time I got married. When I got married, I had to knock it off.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, because perfection can be challenging as well, but still striving for excellence is okay. So tell us about when did you get into the military then?
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, I tried to enlist in the military in January of 1943. I tried to enlist in the Army Air Corps, I should say. They said they weren’t taking enlistments at that time. That was the height of the war. So what they were telling me is they didn’t want any people of color in the Army Air Corps. So they drafted me into the Army in March of 1943. And that’s when I ran into segregation, when I was inducted into the service. I took a train from 44th, Pennsylvania, bound to Fort Meade, Maryland. Arrived in Washington, D.C. early in the morning. And we were early, like I say, and so I got off the train and went to a restaurant. Got some breakfast, came back, went to get into the car I arrived in, and they said, no, no, you ride in the car where Negroes ride. Welcome to the South.
SPEAKER 08 :
Were you absolutely shocked? And first of all, you wanted to get into the Army Air Corps, and they said no, that they were not taking enlistments during the height of the war. Right. But yet then a few months later, you’re drafted into the Army. And then were you just shocked, Colonel Harvey, when they said that this car was not for you? Were you just aghast or what went through your mind at that time?
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, so you’re in the Army now. What happens after that, Colonel Harvey? Okay, I’m in the Army, and what they did is they put me in the Army Air Corps Engineer. Driving bulldozers, graders, carry-offs. My mission is going to the jungles of the Pacific. Go down an area and build an airfield. Well, we each went out and practiced in an old town called Accotank, Virginia. And… It all got all sweaty and dusty, and I said, no, this isn’t for me. So I applied for cadet training. I was accepted, and 10 of us went to Bowling Field to take the exam, nine whites and myself. We took the exam, and when the dust cleared, there were two of us standing, a white guy and myself. So from there, I went to Roxy, Mississippi, the Keeska Field. And 30 more days of basic training. And when I finished my basic training at Keister Field, off to Tuskegee I went and the rest is history.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay, so you’re off to Tuskegee. And so what happens when you get there?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I’m assigned to a unit. They put us in a rocker cub to see if we had the aptitude to fly an aircraft. And so I finished that. So then I was assigned to primary training. And primary training, we flew PT-19 aircraft, not the high-wing, low-wing monoplane aircraft. And I looked more like a fighter. And I flew that in primary. Finished primary and then went to basic. And basically had a BT-13. It’s normally called a bounty vibrator because you would vibrate. Get the airspeed too low. And then I went to advanced training. And after advanced training, I went to a tactical unit. But, well, I should say overseas training unit. And from there, I was assigned to a tactical unit. Okay.
SPEAKER 08 :
Now, there at Tuskegee, this would be all black pilots, is that right? Or what did that look like exactly at Tuskegee?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, in primary, our instructors were black. I don’t like to use that term, but anyway, we’ll use it. Well, what term should I use? You can use anything you want. I just don’t like that term. Okay.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, I’m just… Yeah, just explain to the listeners what that looked like when you got there. I’m sorry. I missed that. Okay. So at Tuskegee, instructors, what did that all look like? Because the Tuskegee Airmen are so famous. So what did that all look like?
SPEAKER 09 :
Our instructors in primary were instructors of color. Okay. They had finished training at Church Kiki Institute. The government had a plan where they trained youngsters or I shouldn’t say youngsters but college graduates to fly aircraft, and the best ones were used as instructors. Now, our instructors were people of color, and their job was twofold. Number one, teach us to fly, and number two, condition us to what would happen when we got to our white instructors in primary training. I’m sorry, in basic and advanced. So what they would do is they would do all kinds of things to provoke us to do something where we could get washed out. They’d call us names like the Wycombe instructors would be calling us. Anything to provoke us to do something. And so they could correct us and get us on the right path so we wouldn’t do anything stupid to wash up. They did a good job.
SPEAKER 08 :
So they were teaching a real discipline then as well, yes, Colonel Harvey? Yes. Yes. Wow.
SPEAKER 09 :
I had a two-fold job in primary.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, it was important because there were those that probably wanted you guys to wash out, yes? What was that? There were people out there that wanted you guys to wash out, so to not wash out was super important, yes? Correct.
SPEAKER 09 :
But they didn’t think we could fly, period. So we knew we could. But anyway, yes, your question, your statement, I should say.
SPEAKER 08 :
Now, is it a class? Would you say it was this class of Tuskegee Airmen? How many guys were in this class or unit that you were training with? Oh, boy. Oh, boy.
SPEAKER 09 :
Maybe 25 or 30 in the class. Okay, okay. And maybe 15 or 20 complete, maybe.
SPEAKER 08 :
And that’s a pretty good percentage, isn’t it, for completion?
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes, yes, especially when they’re trying to wash us out. Right. They did everything to wash us out. And what…
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, and I think I’m assuming everybody knows what washing out means, but it means that you don’t make it through. And I know that I’ve interviewed a number of pilots that it was just sheer grit to make sure that, that they didn’t wash out. I’m talking with Lieutenant Colonel James H. Harvey III, Tuskegee Airmen, and the winner of the first ever Top Gun competition, our military Top Gun competition. And we will talk about that here in just a little bit. But before we go to break, I wanted to mention the Center for American Values, which is located right here in Pueblo, Colorado. Pueblo, Colorado. is known as the home of heroes because there are four Medal of Honor recipients that call Pueblo home. And the Center for American Values does great educational programs to talk about integrity and honor and patriotism. And they also have a beautiful Portraits of Valor, which is 160 different Medal of Honor recipients with quotes. The center is open seven days a week. 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. You can get more information by going to AmericanValueCenter.org. We will be right back.
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RE-MAX realtor Karen Levine helps bring to life the individual stories of our servicemen and women. With her sponsorship of America’s Veteran Stories with Kim Munson, Karen honors the sacrifices of our military and is grateful for our freedom. As a member of the National Association of Realtors Board of Directors, Karen works to protect private property rights for all of us. Karen has a heart for our active duty military and veterans and is honored to help you buy or sell your home. Call Karen Levine at 303-877-7516 to help you navigate buying or selling your home. That’s 303-877-7516.
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SPEAKER 10 :
Hi.
SPEAKER 08 :
And welcome back to America’s Veteran Stories with Kim Munson. Be sure and check out our website. That is AmericasVeteranStories.com. And I am so pleased to have on the line with me Lieutenant Colonel James H. Harvey III. Well, we wanted to make a clarification. In the previous segment, I had said that you were the military’s first top gun, that you’d won that competition. But you wanted to clarify that, Colonel Harvey III.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes, I do. Our team consisted of four people, three primaries, and one alternate. Now, the three primaries were Captain Temple, First Lieutenant Harry Stewart, and First Lieutenant James H. Harvey III. And the three of us won the main.
SPEAKER 08 :
And while we’re talking about it, let’s talk about – I’m trying to think here. Let’s go ahead and talk about the competition while we’re making this clarification. I know that there’s a lot of experience we want to talk about between when you had gotten out of advanced training – But let’s talk about the competition right now. You said that there were four team members and all Tuskegee Airmen. Is that correct, Colonel Harvey?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, that was our team from Rockborn, Columbus, Ohio. All the other fighter groups in the United States participated.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. It was just one part. Okay, but your team was all Tuskegee Airmen, yes or no? Yes. Okay. So how many different teams were competing for this topic? And this was, what, do I remember right? Wasn’t it like 1949 that this was, or I can’t remember? May of 49. May of 49, okay. So World War II is over, and of course… airplanes, aerial, the Air Force, all that was just coming into being because World War II was over. When was the Air Force created? It initially was the Army Air Corps and then became a separate branch of service to the Air Force. When did that change occur?
SPEAKER 1 :
1948.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. In the United States Air Force.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. So this is now the very first competition for the United States Air Force. Top gun. It’s a team of four. There are teams from all over the country. How many teams were competing, Colonel Harvey?
SPEAKER 09 :
A lot. Should we say?
SPEAKER 08 :
We’ll say a lot. Okay. So first of all, where was this competition at?
SPEAKER 09 :
I was at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada, which is now Nellis. Okay. And what did it entail? Okay. It was aerial gunnery at 12,000 feet, aerial gunnery at 20,000 feet, dive bombing, skip bombing, rocket firing, and panel streaking. They were the events.
SPEAKER 08 :
Wow. Wow. Okay, so each of the pilots on your team, did they have a specialty, or what did that look like in these competitions? Did they have a special what? A specialty. So did, like, for example, did you do the dive bombing and somebody else did the aerial at 12,000 feet, or what did that look like?
SPEAKER 09 :
No, we all did the same thing, each mission. If it was a dive bombing mission, we all dive bombed. The skip bombing mission, we all have skip bombs. Kind of the same thing for all the teams.
SPEAKER 08 :
And what is skip bombing? I know what dive bombing is, but what is the skip bombing?
SPEAKER 09 :
You come in very low to the ground, your propeller carrying ground by a lot of foot, and then you drop, you release your bomb. I won’t tell you my secret. We release our bombs. We’re so low, it doesn’t have a chance to nose over yet. So the bomb hits the ground and it’s in the flat position and skips through the target.
SPEAKER 08 :
Is that dangerous for the pilot if you’re so close, so low to the ground, and you drop it? I mean, if it immediately would detonate, would that be a problem for the airplane?
SPEAKER 09 :
No, it doesn’t detonate at that point because when you drop it, it’s a cone shape on the front. It’s a rounded front and… That’s where the mechanism is that sets the bomb off. So it hasn’t struck anything yet. It only explodes when it hits something, like the target, whatever target you skip on it. So when it hits flat, it’s okay. Just don’t let the nose hit something. When the nose hits something, that’s when it explodes.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay, okay. Tell us about dive bombing. I find that intriguing and very scary. So what does dive bombing look like exactly?
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, you come over to your target about 10,000 feet. You roll it over and drop down vertical on your target. Then you decide when you want to release your bomb. But you have to make sure for the meat, you have to release it and pull out by 2,000 feet. Okay. Anyway, that’s the procedure for dive bombing. Come over your target, roll over, drop straight down, line up on the target, release your bomb when you think you should release it, and pull out. I find that remarkable.
SPEAKER 08 :
Oh, my gosh.
SPEAKER 09 :
There was an F-82 that was involved. We had a young airman from our group. And he wanted to get a ride in an F-82 to see what dive bombing was like. And the pilot mushed into the ground. When I say mushed, he was pulling back on the stick, but he was too low when he started. And here’s the aircraft that’s, like I just said, mushed. Sort of a flat attitude at the bottom and kept going down and struck the ground and killed both of us.
SPEAKER 08 :
Oh, my gosh. Yes. Yeah, it’s truly, truly an art. So the competition is occurring here in Las Vegas. It’s now Nellis Air Force Base. How many days was the competition?
SPEAKER 09 :
I’d say 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. Okay. So I’m just trying to think about what would be happening there. Here you’re drafted in 1943, and that’s where you started to see segregation in the military. And here it is 19… Segregation period. Segregation period. Segregation period. I mean, we have to kind of understand that that was probably a really big thing that you guys were competing there. And there were probably people that were not rooting for your success on this, correct, Colonel Harvey? No one as far as success.
SPEAKER 09 :
They didn’t plan on it either. We weren’t supposed to win. And we won. That upset everything. Yeah.
SPEAKER 08 :
And if I remember right from our last interview, it took a number of years before you and your team actually received the award. Am I calling that correctly?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, we received the award, recognition of the award we did not receive. We finally got that in January of 2022.
SPEAKER 08 :
January of 2022. Almost 73 years later. Boy, that’s something. What else do you want people to know about the competition? And we’ll finish that up in this segment. What else should people know about that?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, we were competing with the best the Air Force had to offer. And so right there, we weren’t supposed to win because we weren’t considered anything. Anyway, we won the meet. Robert Strauss was there. We won the meet. In the record books, it said the winner of the World 49 Veterans Meet was unknown. Unknown, unknown. We finally got that corrected after 46 years. Boy, that’s a long time.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah, everything takes a long time when we’re involved. Yes. What about you and your teammates when you won the competition? What did you guys say to each other? How did you lean on each other with all this?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, we were elated when we won. Plus, we had an incentive. We met with our commander, Colonel Benjamin Rodriguez, Jr. at Rockborn, Columbus, Ohio, before we left, going to Vegas. His big, mighty remark was, if you don’t win, don’t come back. So those words of encouragement, off we went.
SPEAKER 08 :
That is really exciting. I’m still just thinking about the fact that you weren’t recognized for a number of years for the win. But I guess what I will say is it’s about time. In all this, Colonel Harvey, did you ever feel like a victim? Feel like a victim? Yes.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yes. Oh, yeah. I felt like a victim. It didn’t bother me. I just kept going on and doing what I had to do.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. So you rose above that then and again, became the best of the best. And I think that’s important for people to understand that, I mean, we do have things that happen in our lives, but we have to rise above that. Correct, Colonel Harvey? Correct. Correct. Correct. Always. Always. Okay. And at this point, what would you say to the young people of America right now? I mean, here you’re going to be 100 years old. Your accomplishments are absolutely remarkable. You started as a young age. It sounds like probably at home, the striving for what you said, perfection, but striving for excellence. What would you say to the young people of America now? Always strive to be the best. It’ll pay off in life. Well, that is very important. Important rules to live by. And I’m talking with Lieutenant Colonel James H. Harvey III, Tuskegee Airmen. He and his team won the very first Top Gun military competition in And at this time, I wanted to mention the USMC Memorial Foundation. Paula Sarles is the president of the Marine Memorial Foundation, and she and her team are raising money for the remodel of the Marine Memorial out at 6th and Colfax. And you can help them by going to usmcmemorialfoundation.org to contribute, to donate. Also, you can buy a brick to honor your military service or your loved one’s military service. It will be on a walk pathway, a walkway there, and you will receive now a beautiful certificate for that. So for more information, go to usmcmemorialfoundation.org. That is usmcmemorialfoundation.org. We’ll be right back with Lieutenant Colonel James H. Harvey III.
SPEAKER 05 :
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SPEAKER 10 :
God bless America.
SPEAKER 08 :
And welcome back to America’s Veteran Stories with Kim Munson. Be sure and check out our website. That is AmericasVeteranStories.com. Thrilled and honored to have on the line with me Lieutenant Colonel James H. Harvey III, a Tuskegee Airman. He and his team won the very first Top Gun competition in 1949. Colonel Harvey, you are drafted into the Army in 1943. Did you end up going to either Europe or the Pacific during World War II? No, I did not.
SPEAKER 09 :
I finished combat training in April of 1943, and I had my bags packed within one hour of catching the train to go to Norfolk. I shipped to go and join the group, and we got a message saying the war in Italy was over, and they expected to line up the whole European theater. Well, Hitler gave up the following month, so I didn’t make it. Okay.
SPEAKER 08 :
Before we move on, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the washout rate regarding becoming a pilot in the Army Air Corps at that time. Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER 09 :
In, let’s see, the early 40s, you can say 41, 42, I think January, February, the washout or failure rates for white cadets was running at 63%, which is pretty high. Mm-hmm. The first class that went through Tuskegee, the washout rate was 47%. They said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that’ll never happen again. So they made sure they had a washout rate for us of 73% or higher, 10% higher than the white cadets. So that’s the way of the product.
SPEAKER 08 :
And the reason is, though, is you were treated differently. It was tougher, yes?
SPEAKER 09 :
No, our rate could not be lower than the white cadets. That wouldn’t look good.
SPEAKER 08 :
Right.
SPEAKER 09 :
That’s why only 996 of us graduated. We would have had a lot more graduate. The class had to be on graduation day. One of the cadets had a spy on his trousers. They washed him out. Didn’t have anything to do with his flying. None whatsoever. Now, Colonel Parrish, our commander at Tuskegee, used to go to Montgomery, Alabama, where they had a flying school. He’d tell the commander over there, we wash out better pilots at Tuskegee than you graduate over here, which is true. We lost a lot of good people.
SPEAKER 08 :
Wow. Colonel Harvey, the Tuskegee Airmen are also called the Red Tails, correct? Where did they get that name? Okay.
SPEAKER 09 :
When they switched to P-51 for an escort mission, they decided to paint the tails on the aircraft red. Okay. Okay. Which aircraft did you fly for the competition, or were there different ones? Okay. It was a good aircraft, but obsolete.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. And I’ve heard that pilots that flew P-51s, they loved that plane. That was a good airplane.
SPEAKER 09 :
And again, it depends on the mission. If you’re air-to-air, P-51. If you’re air-to-ground, no, you want the P-47.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. Now, going to this washout rate that, in fact, there were Tuskegee Airmen that washed out that your commanding officer said are better than some of the guys over at this other base that they graduated. The Red Tails had an amazing reputation. And I talked to it was, again, either a bomber pilot or their child that said that the Red Tails saved their lives. I think it was a child. He said the Red Tails saved my father’s life and that they would request the Red Tails escort whenever they could. So speak to that, Colonel Harvey.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. Well, let me back up. I was at Oshkosh about 24 years ago. Manning a Tuskegee Airman. And this white guy came up and we started talking. And he was saying he knew a pilot. He knew a Luftwaffe pilot. And that Luftwaffe pilot was telling him, he said in their daily briefing, they were told, if you see a red tail, don’t go in. Really? That’s right.
SPEAKER 08 :
That’s right. So no wonder the bombers would, bombing pilots would request you. Okay, well, how long were you? Go ahead, sir. Go ahead.
SPEAKER 09 :
Plus, we flew with the bombers through the flock and all. We stayed with them. And the flak, that’s bad stuff. Anyway, we were working through the flak. So we stayed with the bombers. We didn’t go running off trying to become aces.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, because the real purpose would be to escort the bombers so that they could get to their target. And, Colonel Harvey, I didn’t really realize it until after I started doing these shows. You know, we’ve always heard, don’t give me any flak. And I never really understood what that was until I learned what flak was. And, of course, the closer you get to the target, the more flak… would be shot up into the air to try to damage the aircraft, correct? Correct. Not damage it, shoot it down. Right.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. And some bad stuff.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay, so we’ve gotten through now to 1949. You and your team have won this competition, but we move into, quickly, the Korean War. So where did you end up during the Korean War?
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. The meet happened in May of 49. In June of 49, I shipped out to Misawa, Japan. Eddie Drummond, who was another pilot in the 99th, he and I went to the same outfit in Misawa Square. So before we left Lockhorn, our 201 file had been sent to the commander of the outfit at Misawa. And in there was our pictures. So the commander called all the base pilots into the theater. And he said, we have these two Negro pilots coming in, and they’ll be assigned to one of the squatters. Well, the pilots told us this and so on. They said, no way are we going to fly with them.
SPEAKER 10 :
No way.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. Eddie Drum and I report into the wing commander. That’s how our base is planned. And we were chit-chatting, and he said, what do you want us to call you? And I said, well, I’m a first lieutenant. Eddie Drummond’s a second lieutenant. How about lieutenants Harvey and Drummond? He said, okay, but that’s what he was supposed to do anyway. See, at that time, we had two air forces, the White Air Force and the Negro Air Force. So I guess, I don’t know what he was thinking, but anyway. But then he made a mistake. He said, we have three fighter squadrons on the base. Two T-51 squadrons and an F-80. F-80 is a jet. He said, which squadron do you want to go to? And I said, F-80. So he put his boat in the F-80 squadron. Now, they didn’t have a T-33, which is a trainer version of the F-80. But they did have an AP-6, actually, for an advance. Now, in the backseat of the AP-6, you have a hood. You can pull it up, lock it in place. You can’t see out. Now you can see your instruments. So what they had us do, I’ll use myself as an example. I get two flights in this AP-6 in the backseat. I get in the backseat and strap in, pull my hood up. I can’t see out. And the pilot up front, which is one of them, He calls the tower and gets instructions for us to taxi out and line up on the runway. So when he lines up on the runway, he says, okay, you’ve got it. In the meantime, I’m over there and I can’t see out, and I stay under the hood. Okay, I run my power up, release my brakes, down the runway I go, get off the ground, pull up the gear, flaps, mix control, prop pitch, all the stuff you have to do in a conventional aircraft. I fly around doing maneuvers he wants me to do. Then I contact ground control approach, and they vector me in for a landing. And when I touch down on the runway, the pilot sort of takes over. I had two flights like that before we both did. So what does that have to do with flying the F-80? Nothing. This bothered me for years. Well, I finally figured it out. They wanted to see if we could fly. No matter where we went, we had to prove that we could fly. Anyway, that’s that story. Okay. Before I took off on my first flight, I was on the maintenance line inspecting the aircraft, and the crew chief said, you’re going to wave goodbye on takeoff. I said, oh. Anyway, I did not wave goodbye. The reason he said I would is because in the P-47, you have to push and pull to get the aircraft to do anything. You know, push and pull. I’ve talked about it on the stick. Make the ailerons move. And on a jet aircraft, it’s just a little pressure. That’s all. Very little pressure to get it to do what you want it to do. Anyway, I took off. I did not wave goodbye. He forgot I was a touch-key airman. We adapt very quick.
SPEAKER 08 :
So I still don’t understand, though. Why did he say wave goodbye? To take your hands off the stick or what? Well, because you have to push and pull.
SPEAKER 09 :
You have to physically move the stick to get the aircraft to do anything. On a jet aircraft, it’s just a little pressure. That’s all. Yes, a little pressure to get him to do what you want him to do. That’s the big difference. So you can over-control really easily. And I did not over-control.
SPEAKER 08 :
But he thought that you might. Is that right? He knew I was right. Oh. So you proved him wrong then, obviously. Yes. Right. Okay. Okay. Got it. I got it. Okay. We’re going to continue the conversation here in just a moment with Lieutenant Colonel James H. Harvey III. fascinating story about his military career. The shows come to you because of great sponsors, and one of those is Hooters Restaurants. They’ve been great sponsors of both my shows for many years, and they have five locations, Loveland, Aurora, Lone Tree, Westminster, Colorado Springs, and And a great place to get together for lunch specials or happy hour specials Monday through Friday. And how I got to know them is a really important story about freedom and free markets and capitalism. And you can find that at my website, KimMunson.com. So we will be right back with Lieutenant Colonel James H. Harvey III.
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SPEAKER 01 :
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SPEAKER 03 :
From the mountains to the prairies,
SPEAKER 08 :
Welcome back to America’s Veterans Stories with Kim Munson. Be sure and check out our website. That is AmericasVeteransStories.com. I am talking with Lieutenant Colonel James H. Harvey III. He is a Tuskegee Airman, as well as he and his team were the winners of the very first Top Gun competition. And just a fascinating career. He will be celebrating his 100th birthday this year. Colonel Harvey, what about Korea? You flew missions in Korea. The Korean War is referred to as the Forgotten War, and a lot of people don’t know that much about it. So tell us about your experience during the Korean War.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, I was stationed in Japan when the Korean War started. I think it was September 21st when it started. And we were at Osaka, Japan during memory competition or memory training, I should say. And then we immediately moved to Inazuki, Japan, which is the next island. And we operated out of there until I think it was September. And then we moved to Taegu, Korea. But… One commander was always talking to the Far East Air Force commander about a cutoff of missions where pilots could not defy any more missions over Korea. And Mickey was coming down. And finally on Christmas Day of 51, word came down that all he needed was 100 missions. Well, I had 126 then. I got that 126 in 89 days. I lived in that airplane. That was my mission. That’s why I was there to fly missions over for you.
SPEAKER 08 :
And how many missions did you fly?
SPEAKER 1 :
126.
SPEAKER 08 :
Oh, my gosh. And what did the missions entail?
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, we carried two items, well, three items. 50 caliber ammunition on all the missions. Plus, we carry either napalm or 500-pound bombs, depending on the mission. Now, if we were going against tunnels, where the North Koreans love to hide, we carry napalm. You drop the napalm, and napalm loves oxygen. So you drop the napalm at the entrance to the tunnel, And he would just suck all the oxygen out of the tunnel and the victims, whoever was in the tunnel. He’d get the oxygen and he used many now. The napalm took it off. It’s a bad weapon that sometimes you have to use it.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, 126 missions, and what did a mission look like? How many planes were there, you know, in the formation? What did that look like exactly?
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. Now, a mission, we were flying the F-80, and this was any four aircraft, any four aircraft would get off by themselves and come back. Okay. I’m a flight commander now in this outfit. Pilots said they weren’t going to fly with me. I’m scheduling them to fly now. Anyway, I’m a flight commander and I have a flight of four, three others and myself. And we’d have a bombing mission or a napalm mission. It depends on what the target is. We know that before we take off. Anyway, we go out and extend our ammunition and come back alive. And that’s our mission.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. How long were you in the Air Force, Colonel Harvey? 22 years. Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER 09 :
I was actually 21. I was one year in the Army my first year, and I was going to the flying school while I was still in the Army. Okay.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. What about Vietnam? Let’s see. I’m trying to figure out. Were you maybe at the very beginning of the Vietnam War? You were still in the Air Force, or what was the timing of that?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, Vietnam, I was a reserve officer in the military, and I didn’t know. They were probably data separations. But they didn’t send me to Vietnam because I was too close to retirement.
SPEAKER 08 :
Okay. What would you like our listeners to know about the Korean War and the Vietnam War because, you know, just from your perspective of living through that time in our country? Well,
SPEAKER 09 :
There’s an expression they use a lot more. They say, war is, and you fill in the blank. Yeah. But, which it is. But when you’re flying, or any other job you have in the military, you do your job. And if everyone does their job, things will work out okay. No problem.
SPEAKER 08 :
You know, as I’m thinking about your story, Colonel Harvey, so many times people may be in a job where they may not like their boss or their coworkers. And That actually is part of life. I mean, I’m thinking about your experiences where people were trying to wash you guys out. And in the military, you can’t really choose who you’re working with as far as your commanding officers and all. I mean, there’s a real life lesson for people there that are currently unhappy with maybe some of the people that they are interfacing with. What would you say to them when they are in that experience?
SPEAKER 09 :
be a job. When I went to Newfoundland, I was working for a full tunnel. And he made the statement one day. He says, you don’t care for me, do you? I said, no, sir. But I’ll do the job for you. And I did. And what did he say? As long as I do the job, that’s all I can say. That’s all he wanted anyway for me to do the job for him. I don’t have to like him to do the job for him. Me personally, maybe someone else does. I don’t have to like you to work for you.
SPEAKER 08 :
Boy, there’s a real maturity in that.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I’m out to do the job the best of my ability. And here comes the perfectionist again. Anything I do, I want to do perfect. Perfect.
SPEAKER 08 :
I do want to ask you, you said you were a perfectionist until you got married. So how did that match up with you? Because I find that such an interesting and intriguing comment. So expound upon that a little bit.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. Well, let’s start it. My wife and I were using two separate bowls in the restroom, in the bathroom. Once we had another bathroom. And she was getting ready to brush her teeth. And she was squeezing the tube from the middle. You know, you grab the tube and squeeze it. You don’t squeeze from the middle, you squeeze it from the bottom. She pulls out.
SPEAKER 08 :
You use the other bathroom. So it was, I will choose where I will squeeze the toothpaste, tube of toothpaste. That is, that is a, that’s very, very funny. What, what’s, Have I not asked you that you want to make sure that people know about this amazing, amazing career that you had, Colonel Harvey?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, I didn’t think it was. Well, I think about it and it was amazing. But, you know, I was just doing my job. That’s all to the best of my ability. And perfection comes in there.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, and I realize with me that I can not hit perfection, but I do encourage me and those around me to strive for excellence in what we do. And if you strive for excellence, things work out pretty well over the long term, even though it’s not easy. But striving for excellence will get you a long way down the road, Colonel Harvey. Yes, it will. It will.
SPEAKER 09 :
Now, you don’t have to go for perfection. That was my goal. My mantra, whatever you want to call it, strive for perfection. So, even today, like toilet tissue, you tear it off, and maybe there’s a little piece left. You tear a little piece off.
SPEAKER 08 :
Gosh, now it’s straight. What about your other Tuskegee Airmen? Who is one of them that stands out that you would like people to know about them?
SPEAKER 09 :
Oh, boy. Well, during my military, when they broke us up and scattered us, I only ran across one Tuskegee Airman of my own 21 years after that. Well, it was a year later. It was a couple years later. So I’d have to say 20. For 20 years, I never saw a testy year. I was at, when I left Japan and went to Victorville, California, one of them came into the squadron at Victorville, 94th Fighter Interceptor Squadron. He went flying F-86Ds. He came in, he was there about a year and he left. It’s like that. Why he left, I don’t know. But that’s the only time I saw another Tuskegee in my whole career.
SPEAKER 08 :
Did you feel that finally, because you were so good, did you finally gain the respect of the other pilots? I mean, and I don’t really want to put them all in a group because people react to things differently, but did you finally feel like you belonged or were part of it, or did that ever occur? It never occurred to me.
SPEAKER 09 :
I always thought I belonged. You don’t like me here? Okay, get rid of me. But I never had any problems. I was liked, well liked. I did my job. I did my job better than they did.
SPEAKER 08 :
So what should they say? Nothing. Right. That would command respect in doing so. So again, to all of us out there, I take heart in striving for excellence and realizing that things, people say, do things we don’t like. But if you stay focused, I think that’s the other thing I’m hearing from you. Colonel Harvey is focused. You stayed focused on what was important. And I think people can get distracted too easily. Your thoughts?
SPEAKER 09 :
I don’t know. I never get to that point. I’m always focused.
SPEAKER 08 :
I think that is true, that distraction and Lieutenant Colonel James H. Harvey III, those are not in the same sentence. Colonel Harvey, I thank you so much for this important interview. It’s inspirational. I’ve learned a lot in my conversations with you, and I so thank you for the interview.
SPEAKER 09 :
Thank you. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER 08 :
And indeed, my friends, we do stand on the shoulders of giants. So God bless you and God bless America.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you for listening to America’s Veteran Stories with Kim Munson. Be sure to tune in again next Sunday, 3 to 4 p.m. here on KLZ 560 and KLZ 100.7. And KLZ 100 points.
SPEAKER 02 :
The views and opinions expressed on KLZ 560 are those of the speaker, commentators, hosts, their guests, and callers. They are not necessarily the views and opinions of Crawford Broadcasting or KLZ management, employees, associates, or advertisers. KLZ 560 is a Crawford Broadcasting God and country station.
