FIX IT RADIO: Refrigerant Shake-Up, Heat Pump Confusion, HVAC Secrets That Could Save You $$$$ (5-10-25) by John Rush
SPEAKER 11 :
Walter? Upstairs! Are you alright?
SPEAKER 04 :
In the floor behind the chair.
SPEAKER 05 :
This is America.
SPEAKER 02 :
Does everybody know what time it is? Fix It Radio!
SPEAKER 03 :
All right, it is that time. Fix It Radio, KLZ 560. Appreciate you all joining us on this fabulous spring slash we’re getting into summer day here in Colorado, May the 10th. So if you’re listening to a replay of this show, you know what day it is. And if you’re listening to us on either Sunday or Tuesday, because a lot of you listen to us Sunday evenings as well as Tuesday from 2 to 3, we appreciate you listening as well. Hunter from Cub Creek Heating and Air Conditioning with me today.
SPEAKER 10 :
How are you, John?
SPEAKER 03 :
I’m glad you’re here. I’m doing well, and I appreciate you being here. We were talking before the show that Saturdays are, how should I just say, a little more laid back. We have a little bit more fun. Not that the daytime show and all that during the week isn’t fun, but for me, Saturdays are just laid back, and we have more fun.
SPEAKER 10 :
And that’s how it should be.
SPEAKER 03 :
And that’s exactly right. That’s how it should be. So those of you listening, if you’ve got any… questions at all when it comes to the furnace end of things, your AC end of things, split systems, which are becoming more and more popular. We’re going to get into a lot of that today. And then also talk about some of the new changes that have happened in the HVAC world with Freon changes and a lot that happens because it coincides with one another. We saw some big changes in Freon on the automotive side starting about a decade ago. Well, guess what? That’s now happening on the home side as well, Hunter, as you know. And they do follow each other.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, and we had the change about a decade ago, too, and then they recently, with EPA changes and stuff like that, recently switched it again to reach their environmental standards.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, quote, unquote. Okay, and I had a news press release that showed up yesterday. I was going to talk about this today anyway, so it’s a good timing. I had a press release yesterday. Somebody wanted to have another guest on. I’m like, well, I’ve got my own person, so I don’t need to do that. But they were talking about how there will be some – industries that could be, not for sure thing, but could be affected by some of what you’re talking about because given where we’re at with different things and so on, there is in some cases a shortage of Freon. Is that correct?
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, and so what’s happened recently is when they made the refrigerant switch on January 1st of 2025 was when they had to quit manufacturing the old units with the old refrigerant.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay, which is what, 410? 410A.
SPEAKER 10 :
Then when they split, they went to two different refrigerants. They went to R32 and R454B, and they have a lower GWP is the whole reason they went to it. Some of the side effects of that is the newer refrigerant is considered slightly more flammable, so it jumped a class of vacation and flammability. So with that being said, they added more sensors and different things to that. Well, the other thing that they did with that is they changed the tanks that they come in from a right-handed thread to a left-handed thread.
SPEAKER 03 :
So you can’t mix them up.
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, so you can’t mix them up was the idea. Okay. But the issue with that is there’s only one tank manufacturer in the country, and on the pressure relief valve on the left-handed thread tanks, they messed it up, so it got recalled. So now it’s not so much a refrigerant shortage as we have a tank shortage. that we don’t have refrigerant to put in. We don’t have any tanks.
SPEAKER 03 :
You’ve got refrigerant, no tanks. Yeah.
SPEAKER 10 :
So, yeah, Honeywell and I believe Solstice are the companies that make the refrigerant. And like I said, they’re sitting on a stockpile of it, but they have no way to distribute it to us.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay. Not that you will have this answer, but what knucklehead didn’t think through that process?
SPEAKER 10 :
That was my thing. And so it fell through and the makers of R32 thought we’re obviously ahead of the curve a little bit more. And the reason for that being is R32 has been used for years and years in Europe. So they already kind of had a front gig on it. But the only manufacturer, there’s only a couple manufacturers. A lot of the mini split manufacturers stayed with R32. And then Goodman and Daikin all stayed with R32. But pretty much everybody else, Ream, Carrier, Train, all of them went to that R454B. And the reason being is they were trying to skip the next change. The head of it. Yeah, so they were hoping that if they jumped to R-454 that they’d skip the next one so they wouldn’t have to change again. But it kind of backfired since they already had the R-32 tanks. Those were pretty well in production. The R-454 were not. So you would think that we would be good on R32, but I’m hearing reports now that everybody that was R454 is all the dealers that were carrying R454 units are now running to try to buy Goodman and all these other ones with R32, thus creating another shortage on the R32 side.
SPEAKER 03 :
So it’s like a cat and mouse game. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER 10 :
Unbelievable.
SPEAKER 03 :
And this has been our life for the last five or six years, and it just seems like it’s never going to… Well, and where I wanted to go with this, for those of you that are listening, whereby you may not have done anything air conditioning related for a decade or more, because one of the things we’ll get into today with Hunter that we had talked about this even, I think, last week or the week before, And I wanted to get Hunter on specifically to talk about, you know, how long do some of these things last? What are some of the things that can go bad? If you get an opinion, you know, you get a diagnosis from somebody, you know, how accurate is that going to be? We’ll get into some of those things today. But the reality, Hunter, is that, you know, some units, depending upon, you know, when they were installed, who did the install, how do I want to say this? what type of equipment they use because just like in the auto industry there’s really good stuff and there’s some not so good stuff and some would say well gosh it looks to me like it’s all the same well yeah every car looks the same they you know it’s a it’s a box with wheels yeah they all look the same but no they’re not all exactly created equal there are differences and you know integral to each and the same is true in your world with equipment what I mean by that is you can get some of the older
SPEAKER 10 :
units that you there’s even there’s probably even some still some old r22 units floating around that are still operating oh there’s a there’s a bunch of them yeah and we do have a few that we service and i believe it or not i actually worked on a furnace this uh last winter that was put in in the i think the date on it was 1962 um and yeah it was still safe and everything was good to go so we let we kept it running but yeah we’re still working on an oil Direct drive, belt-driven motor and everything else.
SPEAKER 03 :
Wow. Which shows you that some of that older equipment will last for a very long time. Now, there’s efficiency differences and so on, and we’ll talk about some of that today as well. And we talked about this even last week. A lot of that you really need to sit down. That’s where somebody like Hunter can come in and say, okay, for the cost of the replacement, here’s what our total package is going to be. Here’s what our efficiency differences are. So you can now start plugging in. OK, if we know that gas costs X and electricity costs X, then we know that if you on average are doing your average bill right now is X. Here’s what your percentage of savings would be. And then you start doing the math on, OK, how long is going to take me to pay this particular equipment off? Now, all that being said, and this is where you come into play as well, Hunter. I do think there’s also some advantages on the newer equipment as far as the comfortability factor of what they will do versus some of the old equipment. Am I correct in saying that?
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah. So some of the newer stuff, they’ve come so far in technology. And there’s always the tradeoff there, just like cars and everything else. Everybody’s worried, well, we have more technology, but is that worse or better? Does that mean more maintenance? Gotcha. realistically regardless of what system you have you really should be having that system maintenance at least once a year if not twice a year um but that being said we do have ecm motors and variable speed motors now and stuff like that so for instance i’ll go the the new the newest technology is the heat pump technology and that’s what the mini splits use and everything else The beauty of that is everything’s inverter driven so we go from a straight AC you know direct drive on or off motor compressor in an AC or motor fan motor and now on the inverter driven compressors and stuff like that we’re switching it to like a dirty DC kind of. Um, or it’s technically a dirty AC. So it’s, it looks like a DC on a sine wave essentially. And, um, so by doing that, we can ramp up and down that compressor from anywhere from 10% all the way. They say they’ll do up to like some units will do up to like 120% of its total efficiency. um rated efficiency so that being said um and they have furnaces that do the same thing that the fan speed is very old right in my and then the gas valve modulates same thing 10 all the way up to 100 the beauty of that is is when we design a system we design it in the winter for the coldest day of the year And we designed it for the hottest day of the year in the summer. So for instance, design temperatures and caught in there a little off now, but designed them temperatures in Denver, Colorado on a, in the summer, it’s 95 degrees is what we designed based off of, and in the winter it’s negative five. okay is where it’s pretty close yeah so we’re right for most part that’s i mean yeah we can get some hundred degree days although we have a handful well literally you can count them on a hand typically that we have and that’s how they do and that’s all just that’s all determined by um ahri and ashrae and different associations like that that we run off of um so that being said how many days do we have that are negative five and how many days do we have that are 90 above 95 there’s probably a week maybe in the whole thing on both ends of that maybe two weeks total And so the beauty of the newer equipment is now where it may take 100,000 BTUs, say, to heat your home on a negative 5-degree day, on a 30-degree day, which is probably closer to average, it may only take 50,000 BTUs or 60,000. Half that, basically. So instead of running a furnace at 100,000 all the time or as needed—
SPEAKER 03 :
In this case, you could run it at half of what that is to still get the same effect that you would get otherwise.
SPEAKER 10 :
And the beauty of that as well is you get a little bit longer run times. And it’s been tough kind of teaching people this, but these newer systems have longer run times. And people think, well, it’s running too much. and but if you think about that old 70s home where that furnace it a lot of them that we go into they’re so oversized that they turn on for five minutes and they blow really really hot and then you get really hot and then it shuts off for five minutes and then it’s back on in another five minutes um so it’s constantly stopping and starting and back to the car analogy if you think about that gas mileage wise if you’re in a car is it more if is it is it cheaper for is your sorry Is your gas mileage better if you’re running on the highway with the cruise control set at 65 or 75 miles an hour? Or is it better in the city hitting every stop?
SPEAKER 03 :
Better on the highway.
SPEAKER 10 :
Exactly. So then we took that same idea with gas furnaces and ACs where we’re going to get a little bit longer run time. And that’s going to be more efficient.
SPEAKER 03 :
But your efficiencies are better.
SPEAKER 10 :
Exactly. And the other thing that happens with that, too, is the comfortability is better, too. Because you have… You don’t have this up, down, up, down, up, down.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, in drafts.
SPEAKER 10 :
So it takes care of the draftiness. It is more even eating. Because you think about… You think about temperature and how we feel temperature. You walk by a window and it’s cold. Or my favorite one is when you’re in the grocery store. And I did this the other day. You can look at the thermostat on the wall in the freezer section and it’ll say 75 degrees in the freezer section. You can walk across the grocery store and it’ll say 75 degrees on the other thermostat. But you feel colder in the freezer section, and it’s not because the temperature in that freezer section is actually colder. It’s because all the freezers around that and the draft in there, your body temperature is picking that up, and you feel the draft. So that’s where you’re getting it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, that’s why a lot of folks in the wintertime will keep drapes closed and do things along those lines because it makes it feel warmer.
SPEAKER 10 :
Same idea, and that’s what a lot of people don’t understand. And that’s where it gets a little tricky in trying to figure out pricing as opposed – when it comes to like how much you’re going to save and stuff like that because there are so many factors that go into heating a home um or cooling a home especially you know your insulation if you’re in an old 70s house and we’ve had this time and time again where we have an ac that we put in a new ac and they’re like guys it just can’t keep up on those 95 degree days But we go into the attic of this house and look up there, and it’s the old Pink Panther six-inch insulation. We don’t stand a chance when we’ve got 110 degrees coming through the ceiling.
SPEAKER 03 :
Not losing, it’s just coming through.
SPEAKER 10 :
It’s coming down, yeah. Hot’s always going to go to cold, and that’s just how it’s always going to work. And especially on the cooling end is where you see a lot of that. Mm-hmm. Um, cause yeah, when you heat your energy bill is just going to go high and the heat’s just going to find its way outside, but it’s going to work its way through the house. So you’re going to feel warm, but cooling, especially it is really hard to cool, remove the heat from a house. So if we have a hot ceiling, that’s 105 degrees and we’re trying to blow, it doesn’t matter if we blow 30 degree air in there, you know, 20 degree air in there, it’s still going to feel hot point.
SPEAKER 03 :
Good point. I had a text message came in, and by the way, you guys can all ask questions. You can call in directly as well, 303-477-5600. The text line as well, 307-282-22. So a text message came in, on the newer equipment, will I need to change the line set because the basement is finished and the line set’s all above the finished ceiling? In other words, if you come in to do a
SPEAKER 10 :
a change out do the lines itself have to get changed out not necessarily on a lot of jobs it is best practice if we can do it they do recommend it but we because there’s age and other things different things like that yeah and we and same thing we can’t see all the joints in there you know just like anything old welds go bad so we’re soldering pipe you know if it’s a 50 year old line set and there’s 10 joints in there It’s better. But we can flush the line set. They make a solvent that we can run through the line set that removes, basically evaporates any oil in there. And that’s really what they’re most concerned about is they don’t, because we switched oils in the refrigerant, they don’t want to mix the oil.
SPEAKER 03 :
And for everybody listening, the reason there’s oil in that is that’s what lubricates the compressor.
SPEAKER 10 :
Exactly. So it’s not like a car or wherever where your oil is separate. Your oil actually sits in the bottom.
SPEAKER 03 :
It’s like a two-stroke engine in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER 10 :
Exactly. It sits in the bottom of the compressor, and it’ll actually move through the system periodically.
SPEAKER 03 :
People don’t realize that there’s literally, it is a compressor, meaning there’s a little piston, and it’s actually… Yeah, and it’s actually a pretty big piston, yeah. It’s like a little… one cylinder car engine i guess is the way to kind of look at that it’s a pump essentially it’s a compressor so it’s sucking and pushing it’s what it’s doing and that has to be lubricated yeah and no you don’t change oil in it like you would even the compressor you have at home that’s got a drain and fill and no it’s complete it’s all sealed of course has to be so the reality is yes there has to be some lubricant in there otherwise it’s not going to last
SPEAKER 10 :
Exactly. And so that lubricant is in the refrigerant. And so that’s where they’re worried about, okay, we don’t want the old oil or the new oils, POE, and they don’t want it to switch with the other ones. And that’s why, like, if you’ve ever had a compressor replacement or anything like that. We put all kinds of filters on the line after we replace that compressor because we’re trying to remove all that dirty oil and burnt oil from the compressor burning up.
SPEAKER 03 :
Gotcha. Okay, so in that particular case, yes, you’d probably be okay, especially if it’s a newer house. I mean, let’s say it’s within the last 20 years or so. I still consider that to be a pretty… Houses will last for 100 years plus, so I still look at a 15-, 20-year-old house as not being that old. That’s me. No, I agree. A lot of people look at that and think, well, that’s an old – no, I look at an old house like my main section of my house was built in 74. That’s an old house.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, well, yeah, we see a lot of really old houses. And most of the old houses past that are mostly ran on swamp coolers and different things like that. So you don’t see it unless it’s added later.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, all of those, yeah, because I’ve talked about this a ton. Larry and I both have. And when I was a kid growing up, only rich people had air conditioning. I mean, you ran off of either a window unit or a swamp cooler or the portable box units you’d run around and put in a couple of different rooms and put a pitcher of water in and things like that. When I was a kid, you rarely went anywhere that somebody in a home actually had air conditioning.
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, I would say that, and I know for a fact, when dad started in the industry back in the 70s and stuff, he’s like, we never installed an air conditioner. And up until the 2000s, we really didn’t install air conditioners. And it wasn’t until 2005 on, ACs were an add-on.
SPEAKER 03 :
on a new home build or anything like that most people didn’t even choose to add them on um but so they really didn’t really become a thing in in colorado until within the last probably 10 years 15 years maybe as far as as far as coming even standard on a new build home and so on i would say hunter you’re pretty close at least the last 20 years probably the last 10 for sure and and i will just tell you that you know even from all the years i’ve owned homes and so on um First house I bought was in the late 80s. Again, that was another situation where very few people had air conditioning. So that was late 80s. Time I got into my third home, mid 90s, it was becoming a little bit more kind of standard practice that especially on the upstairs end of things, you wanted some air conditioning. By the time I got into the early 2000s, it wasn’t like it was standard, but it was a pretty common option that if you’re buying a new track home or something along those lines, that box was almost always checked or it just came standard with the home and now i don’t even it’s like a car i don’t know if there’s even any options on a new home now hunter it’s just one of those things i just throw in
SPEAKER 10 :
I think they do offer some builders. It really depends on the builder. But a lot of them know it automatically comes. And part of the reason for that is with a lot of the codes and stuff across Denver, being they’re trying to hit their carbon-free stuff, we can’t put gas furnaces in in a lot of jurisdictions, Boulder County. And Denver’s trending that way. I don’t think they’re quite there yet. But on a new build, they have to be a heat pump, so you just instantly get the AC either way.
SPEAKER 03 :
All right, we’re going to take a break. We’ll come back. We’ve got questions that have come in as well. And this one before we go to break, so the new line set question, somebody said it was a great question. So the old lines will still handle the new Freon no problem.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, it will. Okay. Like I said, there’s practices that should be taken where we should flush it and make sure that all that oil is out and stuff like that. Got it.
SPEAKER 03 :
But that is something that is done. All right. Questions again for Hunter, give us a call, 303-477-5600, or keep texting him in as well, 307-200-8222. Fix It Radio, KLZ 560.
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SPEAKER 12 :
All right, we are back.
SPEAKER 03 :
Fix-It Radio, KLZ 560. Hunter from Cub Creek Heating and Air Conditioning with us today. And we will have them up on our website here soon. I apologize. I meant to have that done by today, but Producer Ann had some things going on this week that she was not able to get that done. But we will have them up on the website here sooner than later. In the meantime, if you want to call them directly, 303. 656-5467 again 303-656-5467 somebody texted to and says have hunter talk about what a heat pump is today in comparison to what it used to be i can’t believe how many people he still runs into that that um they think you need to drill a well for a heat pump
SPEAKER 10 :
No, and so that is a little bit of a miscommunication. When you’re drilling a well, that’s for geothermal. Right. A whole different set.
SPEAKER 03 :
And it’s cool, but it’s a completely different thing.
SPEAKER 10 :
Definitely heat pump technology. Correct. But it is not – what we’re installing and what I’m talking about mostly here, and the big move on it, is they’re air source heat pumps. Right. um so believe it or not the the beauty of it is is or how they work is they actually pull heat in the winter time they pull heat out of the air outside and then bring it inside because even on a you know believe it or not on a 20 degree day there is still believe it or not most people wouldn’t think this but there still is some warm air out there that you can convert well into that energy to heat the home right yeah and it’s not as it’s not it’s a little bit not to get too sciency but we’re pulling a vacuum on this refrigerant so there is no air there’s no external factors so actually we can boil this refrigerant at really low temperatures down to 30 or 40 degrees is where we can boil it and change its state and stuff like that with it being negative pressure so that’s how they’re getting it done i see Now, on the heat pump thing. And they’ve gotten better at that than they used to, right? It used to be, especially like, again, 5, 10 years ago, heat pumps are huge in the Midwest and huge down south.
SPEAKER 03 :
Arizona, places like that.
SPEAKER 10 :
And the knock on them was, hey, anytime it got below negative 10 degrees or anything like that, they’ll run you out of house and home because you’re running on backup heat strips. Right. Um, now they have got, they do make some, um, heat pumps now that go down to negative 40 and there’s like mini splits. Bosch makes one that goes, they’re rated down to like negative 20 or 30. Um, and they’re considered high heat, heat pumps. The, but most of them do on, especially on a packaged split system setup where you have a furnace inside or an air handler inside and a condenser outside, um, Most of them do start to decrease efficiency once you hit that 30 to 40 degree. That’s what I thought. And each one is a little bit different. So on that, the best way to handle that, in my opinion, is… to do a dual fuel system to where you’re setting. You’re doing the same thing. You have an AC. And with the rebates and stuff that’s going on now, it really does make sense just to, if you’re going to replace your AC, replace it with a heat pump. And the beauty of that is you get the better efficiency out of that inverter driven heat pump. with the ac on the in the summer side but you also can use that heating and then what we do is we can look at the chart and graph it and figure out where you start to decrease efficiency at what temperature outside and we can flip you back over to gas heat um And then at that point, the same thing like John was talking about where we’re looking at price cost of gas and electricity, we can now look at, okay, electricity costs this much, gas costs this much. At what point are we starting to lose money? Right. And we can combine and – Ideally, we combine the two. We look at where you start to lose money and where you start to lose efficiency. Whichever one we hit first is where we’re going to set that set temperature to flip over to gas heat.
SPEAKER 03 :
Got it.
SPEAKER 10 :
And then that way you’re always comfortable and we can keep your bill as reasonable as possible.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now, let me ask you this, because I do think there’s another opportunity here for some of you that, like me, for example. I’ve got, you know, and a lot of folks do, depending upon where you live, you’ve either got radiant heat that might have been put into the floor, you might still have baseboard heat, yet you might still have air conditioning, which that’s done where they’re still ducting in the house, air handlers are put in, they’re not necessarily furnaces, they’re They’re air handlers, and then you still run an AC unit and so on. Where I’m going with that is for some of you that have that type of heat, as a backup heat source, if you go to replace an AC unit, you may very well want to take a look at doing one of these options because now you’d have… dual ability to heat your home. Let’s say something happens and all of a sudden the boiler’s out. Well, if the boiler’s out and you still need backup heat, you could do it this way effectively as well and make it happen that way also.
SPEAKER 10 :
And the other beauty of that too is… You could supplement the heating with the air handler.
SPEAKER 03 :
Correct.
SPEAKER 10 :
We know on a boiler, like that first time you fire it up when it drops big temperatures and things like that, that you get, it takes a little bit of time sometimes for that boiler to catch up and heat the home and get it warm. So you could supplement with the air and get it to at least feel warm for a minute and let that boiler catch up.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, so for some of you where you’ve got a situation like that where you’ve got air handlers and AC units and then you’ve got baseboard heat, radiant heat, something along those lines, and something comes up to where you have a need to do something with the air conditioning sides of things, you may very well want to think about doing something along those lines. giving yourself a backup because a lot of you, like me, you know that if something happens on the boiler end of things, there’s no heat. You turn a fireplace on or something along those lines because there’s no other way to heat the home because you don’t have anything. This would give you backup heat that way.
SPEAKER 10 :
And it’s the same thing on a furnace as well. I mean, you do have two sources of heat then. Right. I mean, as long as the worst case scenario on that would be your blower motor goes out. But as long as the blower motor doesn’t go out on the furnace, you would always have some sort of heat.
SPEAKER 03 :
Got it. Joe, go ahead, sir.
SPEAKER 09 :
Just to echo, I’m sorry, and your guest name is?
SPEAKER 03 :
Hunter.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hunter. Just to echo what Hunter is saying, Hunter, by the way, I used to work for Carrier Air Conditioning for 30 years, so I’ve got a little bit of background. My daughter just went through this last year. She had an oil furnace and some 15-year-old mini splits that were dying, and so they needed to replace them. And we looked both at the heating economics plus the federal rebates, which you get for upgrading to heat pumps. And it was a no-brainer to do the heat pumps, but at the same time, she asked me, well, does this mean I should never run my furnace again? I said, hell no.
SPEAKER 03 :
Right. Using that as a backup.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah. Or use it when it gets cold.
SPEAKER 03 :
Right.
SPEAKER 10 :
She leaves the furnace off.
SPEAKER 03 :
No, I meant use the heat pump more as a secondary or a backup. Yeah, you still wouldn’t run your furnace as cheap as… Until natural gas, Joe, gets so high that maybe there’s a savings on the electric side, but we’re not there yet.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, so she leaves her furnace in the off, the switch for her furnace, she leaves that in the off position until it gets down around… If it’s going to go around 10 degrees overnight, she’s out in western Pennsylvania. So if it’s going to go down to 10 or something overnight, she’ll click the furnace on. And she’ll let her primary furnace run. And the other aspect besides economics, John, just like an engine, compressors have so many hours of useful life. And when you’re working a heat pump at minus 10, you’re putting a lot of hours on that compressor for not a lot of gain. So personally, I would prefer to reduce the number of operating hours on my heat pump compressor If I have an alternative source, you know, if it’s even close on the economics. Yeah, I agree with you.
SPEAKER 10 :
I would agree, Joe, too. And the other thing to think of that, too, is weather does affect heat pumps as well because we have that unit outside. So anytime there’s like a ton of snow or ice or something, that would definitely be something that you would be better off just to flip that furnace or flip over to that gas heat where you’re not worried about the condenser outside getting ice on it or icing up or having to go into defrost mode or anything like that.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right. So again, my point is that it’s not just the simple economics at temperature X, you know, I’m going to switch. You know, if I’m close, so let’s say you’ve done the math and you say, well, at 18 degrees is the cutover point, you know, 18 degrees and below you should be running your furnace. But if it’s, you know, if it’s close and it’s nasty outside and whatnot, I think I’m just going to turn that off and run my furnace because I don’t want to be racking up you know, hundreds of hours on my compressors in that unit. And by the way, they’re working really, you know, at 10 degrees F outside. Those compressors are working really, really hard to extract just a little bit of heat from that air. Good point.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, you’re definitely right. And on that too, once you get to those low of temperatures, the gas heat is going to, as far as comfortability, it is going to feel better with a gas furnace than it is that heat pump. That heat pump, the air may only be 90 to 100 degrees, which is a change in, you know, from gas furnaces. We’re used to feeling 120 to 130 degrees coming out of those registers. So that being said, with that lower temperature, you are going to be more comfortable with that gas furnace at those low temperatures than you are with the heat pump.
SPEAKER 09 :
Great point. Right. And particularly if you do a night setback, you know, in my house, you know, we set back like 62 or 63. And if it’s only… let’s say it’s 20 outside, it’s going to take a long, long time for your heat pumps to warm up the house to 70, whereas your furnace will do it in 15 or 20 minutes.
SPEAKER 10 :
And the beauty of that, too, is the thermostats now will allow you to kind of set some of that. We have droop settings and stuff like we call it a droop setting where we can, you know, if the temperature gets so out of range that we can kick in that we can override the heat pump and say, okay, we’re going to run the gas furnace to catch up because it’s going to be more efficient to do it that way. And then the heat pump will kick in on its own.
SPEAKER 09 :
And, Hunter, do you have a single smart thermostat that’s controlling both systems?
SPEAKER 10 :
On most new systems, we do. Okay. So we primarily use Rheem, but Carrier uses the same technology. And they – yeah, Rheem and Carrier are way up there in everything. But, yeah, so – typically now you would go with the the brand thermostat so the carrier or the ream thermostat and the beauty of that is is they are communicating now so they communicate you only need four wires to do it they communicate but they can tell that way it can communicate back and forth and it can match whatever needs to happen, whatever that compressor, whatever that fan motor needs to do, they can match together and make it work. But you get that advanced technology as well as being able to control all of that through one thermostat, the droop settings, and then the changeover temperatures and different things like that.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right. So that’s new. I wasn’t aware of that. So you can have one thermostat that can control both your furnace and your heat pumps, and it will decide which one to, which one should be running. I wasn’t aware. That’s great.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yep. Yep. And it is all in settings. Installer setup is huge on that. And then continuing to look at it and stuff like that. But yeah, we can do, and that’s what we do on most of them. We figure out that temperature, like, okay, at 35 degrees, it really just isn’t efficient to run that heat pump anymore. So let’s just kick in that gas furnace and let that gas furnace do the work. Same thing on those droop settings. If we drop way below, you know, if it’s a 10 degree split, which we typically don’t want to do anyway. But if it’s that 10-degree split, we can kick in that furnace and make up the difference.
SPEAKER 09 :
Fantastic. All right, well, that’s the only input I had. But thanks for the education. And, again, I think they’re great. And with the federal, I don’t know if those federal efficiency rebates are going to continue to exist next year.
SPEAKER 03 :
Who knows?
SPEAKER 09 :
But in my daughter’s case, the difference between, you know, cooling to cooling only and upgrading from cooling to heat pump, I think was about a $1,200 difference on the install, and she got almost all of that back on the rebate.
SPEAKER 10 :
A lot of times, like I said, if you look at an AC to a heat pump, and Xcel has done a good job in Colorado, they’ve basically made it to jump from the AC up to the heat pump. They basically cover that cost for you in rebates.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right. And just to reiterate something we talked about about furnaces about a week ago, If you’ve got a 15-, 18-, 20-year-old AC-only system, the time you want to do the upgrade is when you don’t have to do the upgrade.
SPEAKER 03 :
That’s right.
SPEAKER 09 :
So we talked about September. And, Hunter, you know that September is one of two times of the year I call the valley of death for residential HVAC because nobody’s running heat, nobody’s running cool. And I know you guys get very, very competitive just to keep your guys busy. So if you’ve got a 15-, 20-year-old cooling unit, you know, this September is a great time.
SPEAKER 10 :
That absolutely is. And, you know, from our industry side, we’re either crazy busy or we have nothing going on. It’s either everybody needs their air conditioner or furnace fixed.
SPEAKER 09 :
There’s nothing. That’s right. Yeah, and so you’d rather have guys, you’d rather have people paying for your labor rather than have your labor sweeping the shop.
SPEAKER 03 :
That’s exactly right. Yep, you’re right, Joe.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay. All right, guys.
SPEAKER 03 :
Good stuff. Appreciate it very much. Okay, question came in along those lines, which is for you, Hunter. On a heat pump retrofit, do you have to run new electrical, or is the existing 240 connection that’s already running the AC unit going to be enough to handle the new heat pump?
SPEAKER 10 :
As long as you stick, like if you have a gas furnace, as long as you stick with the dual fuel system, there would be no electrical upgrade because you can still use that 115-volt furnace in the basement or whatever. And then, yes, the new systems are essentially the same. It’s a swap-out, basically. Yeah. I mean, there’s outside circumstances where maybe the wire size was too small for the old AC or something like that.
SPEAKER 03 :
That’s a whole different situation. In other words, it wasn’t accurate to begin with.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, and so they ran a 12-2 wire and it needed to be a 10-2 or whatever it was. That would be a case. So where that changes, though, is if you wanted to fully electrify, if you wanted to go to all heat pump and then you would run backup heat strips with that electric heat strips, typically that would require 240. Now we require 240 inside the home. And on that, and the reason I push the dual fuel so much is because that’s where this gets expensive. Okay. Is you’re running 240 into the home. Okay. And usually the couple that I’ve done, you’re at like a 75 amp service just to the indoor air handler.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 10 :
So most homes have 100 amp service max anyway.
SPEAKER 03 :
So you’re using a lot of that. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. So. Okay. Great question, by the way. All right. We’ve got more calls coming in. 303-477-5600. You can text us as well. 307-200-8222. Again, Hunter from Cub Creek Heating and Air Conditioning with us today. And this will not be the last time you hear from Hunter, by the way. We will continue to have him back. I’m planning on maybe every six, eight weeks we’ll get Hunter back on and answer questions. I know he’s busy and busy. Has a lot going on, but we’ll do our best to make this happen because it’s one of those areas that everybody’s always got questions on. So we’ll be back here in just one moment. Don’t go anywhere. Fix It Radio, the website, by the way, fixitradio.com. This is KLZ 560.
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SPEAKER 03 :
all right and we are back fix it radio klz 560 hunter from cub creek is with us today 303-656-5467 is how you call hunter directly now i should also say this we always have all of our sponsors a lot of them though are even during the day they’re not necessarily on my shows you know on the weekends but you can always go to klzradio.com and hunter is also there We’ll have him on our fixitradio.com website most likely by next week. I’ll get Ann on that. Again, she had some things this week where she was not able to attend to that, but we’ll get that on the website here quickly so you guys will have the ability to just go there, click. It’ll take you right to his phone number, and off we go. But if you need Hunter for anything, it’s 303-656-5467. Bill, go ahead, sir.
SPEAKER 04 :
I was kind of eating breakfast when you guys were talking. Did you guys say that the old Freon was compatible with the new stuff?
SPEAKER 03 :
No.
SPEAKER 10 :
No, you cannot mix them. Not at all.
SPEAKER 03 :
Just like a car, cannot mix.
SPEAKER 10 :
Exactly.
SPEAKER 04 :
See, because my problem is the guys that put my system in now, it was put in in 96. The crawl space underneath the house, I’ve never been in it. It’s just… You know, it’s like two or three feet high, and people frown when they see it.
SPEAKER 10 :
Oh, it’s one of the fun ones.
SPEAKER 04 :
But can’t you pull a new line in behind the old line?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, not inside the old line, but we could pull it in. No, but use the old one to drag it in, to drag a new one in. No, it’s copper, and the big thing on that is you’d have to work. It is soft copper, so it is a little bit bendable and stuff like that, but it would kink and everything else.
SPEAKER 03 :
You’re pulling out old and putting in new.
SPEAKER 04 :
So then what’s my option then, going to the other side of the house?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, yeah, we’d want to look at it, but yeah, there’s some other options.
SPEAKER 03 :
Keep in mind, you’ve got electrical issues and such. If you do a rearrange of where your AC unit outside is sitting, Bill, so sometimes whereby that labor to drag that line might be a little bit more money. Keep in mind, if you’ve got to go add electric service someplace that you don’t currently have on the house to run that AC unit, that could be far more expensive than just paying the extra money to run the line. Yeah.
SPEAKER 10 :
And if it’s on a crawl space, like you said, Bill, it sounds like even though the crawl space is miserable, we can still do it.
SPEAKER 04 :
It’s miserable, though. That’s why Hunter’s young, Bill.
SPEAKER 10 :
We’ve been in some bad ones, Bill.
SPEAKER 04 :
I’m sure yours is not the worst. The house was built in 1944. Even the old part of the house, the ceilings in the basement are only seven foot. See, the guy that built my house and my neighbor’s house took the barracks apart after World War II and built our houses. Got it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, and, you know, as you know, Bill, unless you had a really, you know, fancy home back in the day, that was pretty standard for a lot of homes built then. You know, there wasn’t these, you know, quote unquote Taj Mahals that, you know, a lot of us now live in today. They really, you know, they built them pretty much for you need a bathroom, you need a kitchen, you need a bedroom, and let’s make this as… you know, as feasible as we can and save as much money as we can. And a lot of folks back then did it for cash. There wasn’t any mortgages or anything along those lines. So you kept it as inexpensive as you could.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, that’s how this house was originally. I think we were about 1,000 square feet. There you go.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, very common. And we’ve had it on since. Yeah, no, that bill back in the day, that was, again, there weren’t any other ways to do it because you didn’t have the ability to borrow money to buy a house back then. Yeah, I know. As you know, that’s why they did it that way. A lot of young people listening to me right now are probably thinking, what in the world are you guys talking about? People paid cash for a house? Yep, they did.
SPEAKER 04 :
It’s a whole different world.
SPEAKER 03 :
That’s right. Yep, you’re right, Bill. okay okay no great great question and that’s something for yeah for a lot of you to think about because some people say well i’d love to have that ac unit somewhere else okay well that’s that’s fine now the question you have to look at is where’s your electric service coming in and what’s that going to look like because you know that’s something that no offense hunter doesn’t do because he’s not a certified electrician so now you’re hiring a a certified electrician to come out and run those drops and put that box on the wall and, and, and, and, and again, in a lot of cases, you’re still going to be the cheapest to just replace what you have, where it’s at.
SPEAKER 10 :
Am I right? That is going to be the cheapest option.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yep. Because everything I just said can, can come into play, right?
SPEAKER 10 :
Exactly.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay. So again, for those of you listening, and again, for those of you listening, if you need any help at all, you go to fire things up this weekend. And partly why I wanted to have Hunter on now is it’s going to be, you know, high 70s or mid 70s, I should say today, going to get into the low 80s tomorrow, Monday, Tuesday, a little bit cooler again, maybe next weekend. But we’re into that time of the year now where you’re going to start firing up your AC unit. I had a few text messages when I mentioned that a couple of days ago where folks were asking, you’re haven’t fired yours up yet? And I’m like, yeah, no, we’ve been able to keep things pretty cool. Keep in mind, I live on the west side of town, a little bit higher elevation, so we’re a little cooler anyways. Typically where I live will be two, three degrees cooler than what the rest of town is. And I get a little breeze where I’m at, so we can typically… get by a little bit longer turning on. They can typically turn mine off a little bit sooner than maybe others are. And I’m also old. So, no, I don’t keep the house at like 65 degrees. So, yeah, no, I don’t do that. Those days are long gone. Now, I will also say that I’m not one of these and I know I’m unique. But in the wintertime, yeah, I’m very spoiled. I don’t change the temperature. I have baseboard slash hot water heat, and I set that bad boy at 72 degrees, and it stays at 72 degrees all the time. And no, I don’t vary it at all. Some of you are thinking, you mean you sleep that way? Yeah, I like sleeping the same way all year long, whether it’s winter or summer.
SPEAKER 10 :
I actually recommend the set it and forget it idea with the thermostat. Number one, to be comfortable. Number two, it is the most efficient way to kind of run a system because if you think about it, changing temperature in a space is really hard. Yeah. It is. And all of our systems are better. They’re designed to maintain that temperature. So if we can hold that temperature at 72 degrees or 68 degrees, if that’s where you like it or whatever.
SPEAKER 03 :
Whatever it is.
SPEAKER 10 :
It doesn’t matter what the temperature is. You are going to be more efficient doing it that way. Because any time, and same thing, go back to the car analogy on the highway, we go from.
SPEAKER 03 :
Keeping that steady.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah. If we’re trying to go from 58 to 78. Never thought of that. Now we’re.
SPEAKER 03 :
Because you’re heating all the other objects that are in the room, furniture, countertops, on and on we go, right? Right. Walls, you name it, everything is staying at that constant temperature, correct?
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah. So, yeah, and when we’re making those big 10-degree changes, we’re on a dragway now, a raceway, where we’re going from zero to 100 trying to get up, you know, trying to make that difference. So our gas mileage is tanking, essentially.
SPEAKER 03 :
So really, there’s… There’s not – you’re the first I’ve ever heard reiterate this because, again, I’m one where, A, I just like the comfortability. Now, I may turn it down a few degrees at night because people like I do as well, sleeping when it’s a little bit cooler, but I don’t vary it much. I’m not more than – I’m being honest with this, Hunter, and all of you listening. And you can ask my wife. I don’t vary it more than a couple of degrees. I mean, I may go from 72 to 70. I’m not going much in the way of temperature change.
SPEAKER 10 :
Comfort-wise is a whole different thing. If you’re not worried about savings and, you know, comfort is your ideal, and I totally get that. I’m the same way. Yeah, at night I totally understand dropping that temperature lower. I just wouldn’t recommend going anything outside of 5 degrees because you’re just – I agree with you.
SPEAKER 03 :
Because I’ve heard how things, you know, run, and I monitor, you know, in my case when the boiler is running and so on, and you just listen to some of that. I’m just like, at the end of the day, what am I saving here?
SPEAKER 10 :
Well, and that goes back to the old stigma, and it’s dad controlling the thermostat, you know, and it’s going to be set at 58. Well, if you leave it set at 58, you’re great. That’s fine.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. What about the guy that comes along and flips it up to 78?
SPEAKER 10 :
Exactly. And that’s the issue.
SPEAKER 03 :
The kid, I should say.
SPEAKER 10 :
Yeah, the kid. And that’s the issue is it’s the cost in running it. And those older furnaces, like I said, they were oversized. They had short run times. So when you did make that big jump back then, it didn’t matter as much. But now when you’re making that huge jump from 58 to 78, number one.
SPEAKER 03 :
So we’re now at a point where we’re better off just set it and forget it. Even with all these smart thermostats and everything else, you’re better off to just go ahead and set it at that temperature you’re comfortable with. If you want to lower it a little bit at night because you like sleeping that way, more power to you. Now, what about, and this is something we’ve talked about with you on my daily show, and that is this time of the year, and there has been some studies along these lines on the air conditioning end of things. That’s different than the furnace. And for a lot of you listening, hear me out here. I do think there’s some studies done. I’m going to get Hunter to jump in here. But running your AC unit at night where it’s a more efficient and cheaper and so on to run because you can get those temperatures down better at night than you can when it’s 95 degrees outside during the day. you are better off getting that temperature down at night keeping everything all closed up keeping the drapes shut all of that keeping as much of that cool inside as you can so that you’re not then running the air conditioning during the day is that something worth looking at it definitely is and on that just keeping that and that goes back to maintaining that temperature so if you don’t let that temperature climb up to 75 at night and say
SPEAKER 10 :
For my instance, I like to keep my house at 72. That’s the number.
SPEAKER 03 :
You and I are the same.
SPEAKER 10 :
That’s my magic number. I just leave it at 72. And then that way, my house is always maintaining that temperature. So even as it gets hotter throughout the day, you’re reaching that temperature. And that’s where kind of, I don’t want to be that way, but some of the power companies and stuff like that have you fooled a little bit. Because they’ll tell you when you leave for work, you should set your thermostat to 78 degrees. Yeah, I know. and then that you should apply for the energy saving rebates and these things that they offer through the, you know, I will tell you that your number one energy use is on startup. So, and if just like anything, if you wait, and so your air conditioner gets set to 78 degrees at three o’clock in the afternoon, the hottest part of the day, and your house climbs up to 80 degrees, and then now it’s night and you want it to pull back down, to 72 degrees, well, now the inside of your home is 80 degrees. So now that refrigerant in that – I’ll tell you the amp draw on your air conditioner is way high. And what are you getting billed on? You’re getting billed on kilowatts, and watts is volts times amps. So if your amps are higher, your bill is higher.
SPEAKER 03 :
Good point.
SPEAKER 10 :
So if you can maintain that temperature and just keep it at 72, I would make the argument in most cases that your bill would be the same even as if you took that rebate.
SPEAKER 03 :
Makes sense to me. And again, sort of goes back to the old application in the wintertime on leaving the furnace the same. You’re going to do the same thing with the air conditioning in the summertime as well.
SPEAKER 10 :
Anytime you can just maintain that temperature.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now that you say it that way, that makes sense. makes 100 sense and no hunter is saying something that you’re not going to hear from quote unquote the power company and so on because guys let me tell you what they don’t want your ac running at three in the afternoon because their loads are the heaviest then on the grid itself and yeah they’re going to do everything possible they can to get you to shut that thing off including putting a smart switch in that they now control which i would tell you please never do that do not allow them to have control over your air conditioning unit that’s my opinion i would not allow that
SPEAKER 10 :
And just so everybody knows how that works, essentially what they do is they put the saver switch on, and what happens is they break the control circuit from your furnace to your AC during those times. So essentially your fan on your furnace will run, but your outside air conditioner will not run.
SPEAKER 03 :
It’s circulating air, and that’s all it’s doing.
SPEAKER 10 :
And now they’re bypassing that, the saver switch with smart thermostats. So when you sign up for the energy saver thing on your smart thermostat.
SPEAKER 03 :
They have access to it.
SPEAKER 10 :
That’s what they’re doing, essentially, too. That thermostat knows, okay, we’re going to, between 3 and 6 o’clock is usually when it is, we’re going to change, we’re going to. kick the AC out and just run the fan on the furnace.
SPEAKER 03 :
We’re going to take that thing offline.
SPEAKER 10 :
And going to the fan on the furnace thing, that is a good way to keep temperatures maintained as well, too, on some of these.
SPEAKER 03 :
Especially if you have a basement.
SPEAKER 10 :
Basement or tri-level homes where the upstairs is hot, circulating that air, you should have a return. on every level of your home. So that being said, that cold air in the basement, if you’re just cycling that fan and just running that fan for a couple hours a day, you’re essentially gonna mix that cold air in the basement with the hot air upstairs and it could naturally just drop the temperature a few degrees that way.
SPEAKER 03 :
Perfect. Again, Hunter, Cup Creek Heating and Air Conditioning. He’ll be a part of what we’re doing now moving forward. So if you have any questions at all or you need him, call him directly. He can answer a question even on the phone. 303-656-5467. We’ll have him on the website here in the not-too-distant future. Hopefully this week I’ll get that taken care of with. Producer Amber, 303-656-5467. If you’re listening to a replay of our show, thank you for that as well. Same phone number, won’t matter. You can use it at any time. Hunter, thank you again. I appreciate it very much.
SPEAKER 12 :
Thanks for having me, John. All right, Fix It Radio, KLZ 560.
SPEAKER 06 :
The views and opinions expressed on KLZ 560 are those of the speaker, commentators, hosts, their guests, and callers. They are not necessarily the views and opinions of Crawford Broadcasting or KLZ management, employees, associates, or advertisers. KLZ 560 is a Crawford Broadcasting God and country station.
